I have been watching some classes at WEF and am noticing A LOT more greys in competition and am wondering the reasoning for this, especially in the hunter classes. I also don’t think that I have every seen so many greys in the ASPCA Maclay Finals. It seemed every other horse was a grey. Are they being imported at a higher rate as equitation mounts because there is a greater demand?
That also got me thinking about the lack of other colors in hunters and jumpers and I would love to see pictures of anyone that has a hunter or jumper of a different color (pintos, knabstruppers, appaloosas, palominos, you name it). I will be in the market for a horse in a year or two and am really interested in pinto warmbloods, so would love to see pictures of any colored horses competing in hunter/jumpers or jumpers.
I would expect the preponderance of greys to be explained by the number of jumping lines that carry grey - on the Hanoverian side, much of the G line is grey these days going back to Grey Top. There’s an abundance of grey in the Holsteiner book with the C line - Corporal back in the 60s, and then subsequent offspring (Capitano, Capitol, Cassini, etc), and it’s been bred into the Cor de la Bryere line too at this point. Add in the fact that these Holsteiner C’s have been bred back into the other registries through stallion acceptance (Oldenburg, Hanoverian especially) and you just end up having a lot of jumping horses that are grey.
Interesting. I understand that it is genetically-based, but am wondering if the addition of “grey genes” were intentionally added to those lines. Were these genes for grey coloring intentionally bred into those lines such as Cor de la Bryere? I didn’t think that they were bred for color, but it seems to be a disproportionately high percentage of greys.
I think that breeding for grey is highly unlikely, more to the point that there were some really significant stallions who were grey who were very capable performers with quality offspring, and when Cor de la Bryere came about, they bred mares by those stallions (who incidentally were grey) to CdlB and then some of those offspring who were stallions got registered, and they inherited grey from the dam, and then here we are decades later with a plethora of grey jumpers.
That makes sense. I find it interesting that there are actually very few grey Grand Prix Dressage horses, but many grey Grand Prix show jumpers. I am assuming the Grand Prix Dressage stallions do not possess those grey genes as much as the Grand Prix show jumping stallions, but is it just a coincidence? It seems if color was irrelevant, there would be equal numbers of greys in hunter/jumpers, dressage, and show jumpers.
A previous thread pointed to a cluster of black horses in current dressage and that too was attributed to several prominent black stallions.
Since warmbloods do divide into dressage and jumping lines, and popular stallions sire a large number of foals, it makes sense that color could also average out differently in different lines
I see more and more pinto oldenburgs I think due to Art Deco/Art Aero/sempatico. I think people get tired of bays.
My horse is a APHA palomino paint who is a very good jumper. He had bad luck in his life with lameness, but I have jumped 5ft singles and 4’6” oxers with him without issue. He has a lot of TB blood in his line.
Color is irrelevant, but I don’t think you’re necessarily taking into account how some of these founding stallions have influenced different lines. Cottage Son was the TB who sired Corporal (the grey mentioned above who started the Corporal/Capitano/Capitol/Cassini line) and was only ever used in Holsteiner breeding (which is geared towards the jumping horse, they aren’t like some of the other registries that will have a split jumping and dressage focus). So depending on where your iconic grey stallions come from, you will find they crop up more or less in certain “lines” and those lines then end up being focused to “dressage” or “jumping”.
One of the few stallions that has shown up both over fences and in flat is Inschallah. A (grey) mare by Inschallah was bred to Rubinstein 5x, producing Rohdiamant (bay), Royal Diamond (grey), and two mares (one grey, one not) who also have been used in breeding. Royal Diamond never had the breeding success that Rohdiamant did, so the grey in the R line is not really very prevalent though you find it occasionally. Inschallah also produced some over fence types through sons Istafan and Inselfürst (who were both grey), among others. So while the grey through Inschallah is on flat and over fences, the really notable lines with him in dressage end up being through the bay Rohdiamant.
Occasionally dressage will collect a grey or two - Isabell Werth’s Belantis (only recently gelded) is grey, although that’s actually through the holsteiner damsire who acquired the grey through other means beyond the C lines mentioned above (taking us back to other holsteiner grey lines, back to the TB stallions Ramzes and Exorbitant. Both were licensed for more than just the holsteiner registries and I believe you’ll actually find Ramzes in some trak breeding).
Basically, a lot of the grey in the warmblood registries can come back to a stallion such as Inschallah or Cottage Son or Ramzes: non warmblood stallions approved with specific registries for a certain purpose (in these cases, often in an attempt to lighten up what was at that point frequently a very heavy horse). However, each registry had specific ideals in mind that they were looking for so while Cottage Son was licensed for Holsteiner, he was never approved with any other registry (possibly because he wasn’t presented, or possibly because other registries identified that he wasn’t what their breeding was looking for at that point in time). Similarly, Inschallah was approved for Trak and Oldenburg, but never Hanoverian. Those stallions fit (or didn’t) the needs of registries at that time, and that’s how color was (or wasn’t) initially introduced…then it really just comes down to which of their offspring “makes it” - a combination of competition record, breeding approvals, accessibility, and success (fertility and then the quality of subsequent offspring).
Edre above explains it well. The Holstein influence in show jumpers has a lot to do with it. Grey is also a dominant gene, so if you get one popular grey stallion in jumpers he has a high chance of passing that on to his offspring. Black on the other hand is recessive to bay, so black is more rare (unless you are intentionally color breeding and doing things like genetic testing for homozygous black etc). You can argue that the hunters tend to look for less colorful horses (although there are fads that come & go with pinto markings in the hunters, and also nontraditional colors in dressage). But as show jumping is purely judged on speed (and scope obviously when breeding for the grand prix ring), it would not make sense to breed purely for color in any of the European jumping registries.
Also as I understand it, hunters isn’t a discipline in Britain and Europe. So the European warmbloods are being bred for dressage or show jumping. When they are too slow for show jumping they can be sold to North America as hunters.
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Dark bay bay might be the traditional preferred color for North American hunters, but if the European warmblood jumper lines have some
families of greys it would make sense that more grey horses would eventually get repurposed as hunters.
I think people are definitely more interested in colorful horses. The Palm Beach Auction was a couple weeks ago and this horse went for the second highest price (I believe well in the $200ks). In looking at all the videos, I think he’s very nice but I thought some of the plainer horses were actually better athletes.
We do have Show Hunters and Working Hunters but they stay a bit closer to their field hunter roots, such as performing a proper gallop during their individual show for the judges. However, look down any line at a show and most competitors are bay, chestnut and grey. Louder colours and markings are not generally preferred but they are gradually creeping into the Workers. In the actual foxhunting field one now sees a lot more variation than in the past, even the Hunt Staff might be on a coloured horse. It helps that the Queen likes them and there have been several successful coloured eventers (though I’m old enough to remember the shock when horses like Friday Fox first appeared).
As a historical note, 19th century British horsemen believed that greying out was caused by premature aging and breeders actively selected against them. The modern grey TB nearly always traces back to the French horse Roi Herode.
