If a pinto stallion has two blue eyes, what is the % of blue eyes his foals will have? Would be crossed with a solid coloured mare with brown eyes.
TIA!
hard to say. Blue eyes indicate he carries some form of an overo coat pattern. My sabino overo stallion had 2 brown eyes. 2 mares he was bred to (one minimal sabino, one minimal splash) both had brown eyes. Not a blue eye among them. The foals out of both mares have one blue and one brown. A bit may depend on he history of he mare. You know the stallion carries some type of overo. The mare can be a recessive carrier. Most times chestnuts that are carriers of overo (especially sabino) express the chrome but often black based sabino carriers (black/bay/brown) can mask the expression.
OK - This is not from any scientific knowledge - just first hand experience.
The four paint horses I’ve seen come through our barn with a blue eye (or eyes) were blue where white markings touched an eye. One ONLY had a tiny tick of white touching one of his blue eyes but there was a white spot.
One mare with a blue eye (had a bald face that came over one eye, which was blue) had two foals. First just had a regular blaze - no blue eyes. Other got a bald face like hers, touching one eye, which was blue.
So - and again, this is just a guess - I assume that it has to do with the pigmentation of the skin & location of white spots.
[QUOTE=camohn;5327214]
hard to say. Blue eyes indicate he carries some form of an overo coat pattern. My sabino overo stallion had 2 brown eyes. 2 mares he was bred to (one minimal sabino, one minimal splash) both had brown eyes. Not a blue eye among them. The foals out of both mares have one blue and one brown.[/QUOTE]
Do the foals have wide blazes or white spots touching their blue eyes?
Blue eyes are nearly always from Splash. Some feel Frame can do it too though I personally don’t believe that.
So, if we stick to a well-known Splash cause, then whether blue eyes are passed on depends on the passage of Splash.
And then, Splash doesn’t guarantee blue eyes.
It’s a 50/50 shot of passing on Splash if the horse is hetero for it, 100% of passing it on if HZ for it. However, there is no way to predict whether the presence of Splash will also give blue eyes.
The blue can come with white around the eyes - a little or a lot - or it can come with absolutely no other white on the horse at all such as this Morgan - head shot and body shot
My daughters paint filly has blue eyes. She is a buckskin tobiano. Her sire is a perlino tobiano (blue eyes) and her dam was a solid bay paint with one blue eye and one brown eye.
Luna’s skin on her face is dark, and she has black eye liner so no pig-eye look. Not the greatest pic due to lighting (which makes her look more palomino than buckin), but this is her.
http://i52.tinypic.com/v8mtmx.jpg
[QUOTE=JWB;5327376]
Do the foals have wide blazes or white spots touching their blue eyes?[/QUOTE]
yes, both have white faces. The white is on both the blue AND brown eyed sides
added: both are OLWS negative
VERY striking! She is also VERY Splash, which has caused the blue eyes. Technically/genetically, she is Tovero - Tobiano with at least one Overo (Splash) trait. Tobiano does not put white on the head, so any “Tobiano” you see with face white has at least 1 overo pattern at work 
My boy has blue eyes and so did his sire. He is overo and splash. He has white on his face but none of the white around his eyes. He is bred to a solid mare this year. I’m just hoping for some chrome.
this isn’t the best head shot here it is.
http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/46692/2458717860045431412S600x600Q85.jpg
Do you mean he’s Frame and Splash? Splash is one of the Overo patterns
Pretty head shot
Color is a strange thing, yes? I have an Oldenburg foal–from a long line of warmbloods (no paints). Mother has a big, wide blaze. Foal from this mare and a dark bay stallion with no white. Foal has no blaze, a white chin, white upper eyelashes on the left eye and distinct/obvious spots of blue in both eyes. Interesting combo to say the least. Luckily, I like blue eyes and think it’s cute.
Yes JB he is both frame and splash overo. Thanks for the compliment he is a great horse. I am hoping for some nice babies from him.
Blue eyes are thought to come frome either splash white overo pattern genes or frame overo genes. There is some thinking that all white markings (other than the Appy body markings) are from minimally expressed splash or sabino genes. Sabino doesn’t make blue eyes. Blue eyes in double dilutes (perlino, cremello, smokey cream) is a result of the double dilution of the eye color and not a geneticly blue eye so the double dilutes won’t pass along a blue eye unless there is one of the two overo patterns connected with blue eyes also in the mix.
Frame and splash white are both perfectly capable of being present without obvious white markings…frame in particular can “hide” as I’ve seen lethal white foals (which frame also produces when homozygous) from a totally colored mare (not one white hair on her!) and from a tobiano mare without any apparent fram in her background.
Splash whites often have blue(s) with or without the typical facial white (which doesn’t have to come near the eye to make the eye blue)…the facial white is often a big, bold, wide blaze with a flat or level top to it usually just under the tip of the forelock. The blaze will also often widen down over the muzzle. Splashes with white at or near the ear base may have hearing deficits. Splash white overos (or toveros with splash white characteristics) with blue eyes often have dark skin around the eyes. Other hints of splash white genetics are stockings/socks with level tops to them and clean distinct borders, a white tail tip, belly white (again usually with smooth edges/distinct border).
Frames will sometimes have white markings on the side of the face as well as on the sides of the body and may have blue eyes as well. They are more often (but not always) the ones with light skin around the eyes and are now sometimes tattooed on the eyelids for protection against sun damage to the skin and glare from the skin into the eyes. Frames usually have colored legs without white markings or very, very minimal white markings (white markings on legs come from sabino, splash or tobiano…sabino are usually lacey, jagged edged with the marking going upward on the backs of the front legs and fronts of the back legs…tobiano markings tend to be high, run up the stifle area and have fairly smooth edges and may also run up the inside of the legs as well…and tobiano is pretty obvious in most cases…there are some fairly rare very minimal tobi’s out there though).
Blue eyes (other than those in double dilutes or the bluish/greenish eyes in some champagnes) are an indication that one or both of the two gene patterns above are involved. One can test for frame (OLWS test)…if negative then the blue eye(s) are from splash white overo pattern. Neither splash nor frame HAS to produce blue eyes…so if you have blues you have one or both patterns but having those patterns doesn’t guarantee blue eyes in the foals.
I have several blue eyed horses in my mostly tobiano/tovero herd. I can trace where they came from in most cases (one is a cropout splash QH without enough white for Paint papers…even if they were still doing cropout registrations…both parents are foundation QH…the other is through a granddam whose sire was likely a cropout also without enough white so remained a registered QH). Another is a mare with a splash sire (grandsire was a splash/frame and was a grandson of a cropout splash mare)…has a barely discernable speck of blue but so far has produced all foals with at least one blue and grandget also getting blues.
Inheritance is 50/50 assuming hetero for either splash or frame…75% chance (maybe) if hetero for both (can carry both patterns in one horse). The other parent may or may not carry hidden potential as well so the influence from that side can’t really be figured (unless tested for OLWS and positive…then you would know that frame is there in that one).
[QUOTE=cripplecreekfrm;5328942]
My boy has blue eyes and so did his sire. He is overo and splash. He has white on his face but none of the white around his eyes. He is bred to a solid mare this year. I’m just hoping for some chrome.
this isn’t the best head shot here it is.
http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/46692/2458717860045431412S600x600Q85.jpg[/QUOTE]
Just looked up his pedigree…you have TONS of color potential in there. The Gunsmokes did more cropouts than almost any other line and then you add in Sonny Dee Bar (splash) and Mr Norfleet (frame) and you’ve got a great color potential (and I like his breeding as well!..can’t have too many Gunsmokes in the world in my book!)
coloredcowhorse - Thanks I am not a QH or cow horse person. Everyone that has working QH’s or paints have told me what great bloodlines he has. I was told when I got him that he was a great cow horse. I am more into hunters/eventing/foxhunting and took him as a favor to a friend of mine. He is a great jumper and foxhunter. I have recently taken him to a couple of team penning events and had a blast! I just hung on & he did all the work. I have really enjoyed him and am glad that I got roped into taking on a stallion.
What about my foal who’s iris on both eyes is 1/4 blue? No paint anywhere in her pedigree–all non-paint warmbloods for as far as the pedigree goes. Is this sabino? or does splash happen in non-paints?
[QUOTE=opel;5331509]
What about my foal who’s iris on both eyes is 1/4 blue? No paint anywhere in her pedigree–all non-paint warmbloods for as far as the pedigree goes. Is this sabino? or does splash happen in non-paints?[/QUOTE]
Yes…all three of the overo patterns (“overo” is pretty much a catch-all term used to say “not tobiano and not solid”)…sabino, splash white and frame…occur in non-Paints. Many of the most popular lines in the Paints are from “cropouts”…horses that had Paint characteristics although both parents were QH or TB.
Sabino is probably the most common “Paint” pattern that occurs in a number of other breeds…Arab, TB, several draft breeds and maybe in more…it can be so minimal in the way it shows (is expressed) that it is considered to be a “normal” marking. It can be a very narrow strip on a face that is just white hair and not even pink skin under it. Leg markings are often socks or stockings that may extend fairly high and usually have jagged or lacey edges and often run up the front of the hind legs and the backs of the front legs. On horses with big blazes the sabino can also create “mustache” markings as well as lower lip white. It may cause belly white but it is almost always along the center of the belly and is lacey, irregular. It doesn’t create blue eyes. The Paint stallion Sabru Indio is a pretty good example as is the Paint mare C Notes Memory.
Splash white is much more common that a lot of people think. It makes leg markings that are nearly flat across the tops with the edges being smooth to slightly rounded. The most common marking is a big blaze that usually has a flat top or nearly flat top. The blaze also often widens out over the lower muzzle and may include both nostrils and down over the lower jaw. Belly spots may happen that are usually rounded and smooth edged. In some cases the entire lower half of the horse is white along with a white tail or tail tip. The Paint stallion Gamblin Man is an example of a pretty wildly marked splash white. Sonny Dee Bar is a good example of a much less wildly marked horse that passed nicely as a QH. There is an entire group of Arabs, if my memory is correct, on an island off of Georgia(?) that show great splash white characteristics. Splashes often have blue eyes and a splash with white at or near the base of the ears can have hearing deficits. The reining stallion known by the nickname of “Gunner” is a deaf as a post splash white…and a world champion. Hearing problems related to white areas of skin near or on the ears are common in many species (Australian Shephard dogs are one and it even occurs in humans).
Frame is the third overo pattern and another that can produce blue eyes. Frame causes white markings on the side of the horse so that viewed from the side the white appears to be “framed” by the colored parts. In general the white on frame horses doesn’t cross the center line (it can, it just doesn’t very often). The center areas of a frame horse are pigmented…the middle of the back down the spine, the midline of the belly most often and usually all four legs. Sometimes there is white on the side of the head as well. The Paint stallion Cimmaron Badger is a good example of a frame overo horse. Frame can also produce blue eyes. When frame is homozygous the result is a lethal white foal…one with an incomplete gastrointestinal tract…it may be unconnected between the upper and lower portions or it may lack the nerves to cause the peristalsis that moves food/waste through. These foals are usually completely white and are born dead or die/are put down within days. Not all completely white foals are lethal whites though so testing for this (OLWS test) in the parents prior to breeding is a good idea. This condition also occurs in other species of animals including humans.
All three of these patterns plus the tobiano pattern can be combined (in fact, due to breeding different patterns together to avoid the lethal white problem, it is hard to find a horse any longer that is clearly just one pattern). When patterns are combined it becomes a real challenge sometimes to see what is there (and in some cases you have to look at the parents or even back into the bloodlines to see markings on ancestors).
Many more TWH, Spanish Mustangs, Morgans, Connemara, Welsh, many of the pony breeds, the Baroque types (Paso, Lusitano, etc), many, many more
There is an entire group of Arabs, if my memory is correct, on an island off of Georgia(?) that show great splash white characteristics.
It’s not even as “exotic” as being (mostly) limited to an island group Khemosabi is minimally Splash, and his son - Khartoon Klassic - as well as Moonlight Money Maker are VERY Splash. Splash is a lot more common in the Arab world than many in that area would like to admit, and some STILL insist it isn’t there :no:
Splashes often have blue eyes and a splash with white at or near the base of the ears can have hearing deficits.
While it’s more likely that a homozygous Splash will be deaf, it’s not about the pigment that is apparent on the outside. It’s what the pigment is doing at the inner ear
Sometimes there is white on the side of the head as well. The Paint stallion Cimmaron Badger is a good example of a frame overo horse.
Do you have a picture of him? I looked for one but can’t find one. I’m one who doesn’t believe Frame can put white on the head, but so far, every time someone tries to show me it can, it’s obvious there is at least another pattern present. So, while it doesn’t prove my point, it doesn’t prove theirs either LOL
[QUOTE=JB;5331843]
Do you have a picture of him? I looked for one but can’t find one. I’m one who doesn’t believe Frame can put white on the head, but so far, every time someone tries to show me it can, it’s obvious there is at least another pattern present. So, while it doesn’t prove my point, it doesn’t prove theirs either LOL[/QUOTE]
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cimmaron+badger
click on the little box with a horse in it at the top of the listing with his name…he may well have sabino in the mix as well. I was looking more at the colored legs and the white on the side of his body…his greatgranddam, Calico Waggoner was a cropout with obvious frame …no leg white, all white markings on body are on side of barrel and neck, lower curve of cheek and facial white…blaze (wide and over both sides of muzzle (both eyes in almost complete patches of color), mustache marking on both sides of upper muzzle/lip…so some possible sabino…no photos of her parents handy although sire was Pretty Boy by Dodger by Harmon Baker by Peter McCue and her dam was a daughter of Buck Thomas also by Peter McCue. Buck Thomas was out of a mare named Stockings…could be a clue.
I used to have a photo of Pretty Boy (the fellow I got my perlino stallion from was a member of the family that bred him). His dam, Red Wine, looks like a splash though so maybe that’s where the facial white comes from…tall flat topped front stockings, facial white, lower barrel/belly white.
Interesting that so many of todays Paints have multiple patterns…makes it fun but also a challenge. I have a minimal splash mare that is registered as a solid…four socks, little odd star, long/thin rectangular snip that slides to one side, no belly white, small patch of blue in one eye. She was sired by a fairly loud splash (grullo) with stockings, big blaze, belly spot and two blues…and out of a QH mare. She’s produced tovero (with one blue, one brown), solid with no white, moderate splash (hind stockings, front heel/coronet, Nike swoosh star, big triangular snip down over both nostrils, two hand sized roan belly spot and one blue, one brown) and a tobiano with no facial white and no blue…all by tobiano stallions (all but the first are by the same stallion). Really love having horses with great pedigrees for working AND all the color that I seem to be coming up with lately. Christmas comes in the spring here.
Our young WB stallion is homozygous for tobiano and also has blue eyes…I am guessing it is Splash at work as he is 100% WB pedigree and Palladio has some wacky face white too. As far as I’ve heard there is not frame in the WB’s (correct me if I’m wrong on that). Obviously Pallido Blu’s face markings are crazy but the white goes near but not into his eyes…we were pretty surprised to see the blues when he was born. We are curious to see if his foals will have blue or not. Fortunately for us we don’t care either way…athletic is athletic…hahaha
