I don’t know if this link will work, but I dug around for a bit until I got a search bar option, entered Betsee Parker and Inclusive and when you click on that option it shows the classes entered and who the trainer is. Then I went to Andre’s name and it lists all of the horses he is listed as trainer for and there they were. That is what that link will hopefully take you to
http://hits.showmanagementsystem.com/east/person/view/2207/3716
Is it common to give hunters Lactanase? I see that the product is “a performance supplement for horses during intense activity when the energy is greatest?” I have never heard of it.
Trainer
So who is the trainer of the day???
Business as usual people…
Sorry …now I see…the groom…according to the transcript…yes I know who he is…
[QUOTE=greysfordays;8302629]
That is SO disappointing. I saw both BC and TC at the Hampton Classic. I think she gave an interview where she said she generally preferred the jumpers to the hunters and eq, so I wouldn’t be surprised if in starting to focus on the jumpers, she eventually starts spending all her time with horses under FEI standards and her reputation becomes repaired. It’s a shame either way. Interestingly enough, I did not see BP at all at the classic and I would have thought she would be there to see her horse win the hunter classic.
As for whether we should go full FEI, I agree that the amateurs are showing been there, done that horses that could use a little bute. I don’t think the ultra stringent rules of FEI make sense for the hunters.
BUT I do think we should borrow some FEI standards and start by applying them to the banned substances we have in place now, like Carolina Gold.
The first would be the ability to drug test any horse at any time. I would love to see champion and reserve be drug tested. They don’t have to every division, it can be randomly chosen.
And the second would be to suspend both the horse and rider for any infraction. I really think it’s the best way to get owners interested in the horse’s care when they hand the reins over to the BM and grooms. And I love Dags idea of having the infraction permanently attached to the horse’s record.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree with the notion that the top horses in a division (i.e. champion and reserve be drug tested). Combine that with random tests of X number of horses and that would be a major step in the right direction.
I also think that suspending the rider would be a great idea. More people need to have a vested interest in competing cleanly.
The whole idea that anyone can sign the entry form as “trainer” is ridiculous in my opinion. It is too easy to make a random groom or working student the fall guy so that the people like the rider and the actual trainer (in the real sense of the word) always get to walk away unscathed.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;8302632]
The judges did their job. It is a very nice horse that is very well ridden. If a judge cannot give a score without preconceived opinions and hearsay entering into their work, they should not be sitting in the chair holding the clipboard. It is their responsibility to fairly judge every entry presented in the ring.[/QUOTE]
This made me LOL. If you think every judge gives a score without a preconceived notion, well…
Remember, this is a subjective sport. If I were judging today, I wouldn’t give such a high score to the 9th horse in the order when I have reason to believe the horse has been medicated. Would I give it a score substantially below its actual performance? No. But maybe today I’d reward the horse with a little more expression and a little less heap on the landing side.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8302620]
It would be interesting to know if any of the other National Federations drug programs are similar to the USEFs. All of them have serious responsibilities for juniors and amateurs. Did they adopt the FEI standards or have they gone their own ways?
I’ll grant that they don’t have hunters, but should that make a difference?[/QUOTE]
Canada’s is a little bit different than USEF’s policy. We use a “Person Responsible” who is designated on the entry form, and they may be anyone from the trainer to the owner to the rider. The person who signs as the “Person Responsible” is the one who will be affected by a positive drug test.
Canada allows fewer medications (Dex, Robaxin, Naproxen, Equioxx, for example, are illegal here) and it just feels like we have a different take on the hunters. I’m sure that some drugging must occur but severely limiting the permitted medications seems to help keep things in line a bit more and you don’t hear of many positives. You certainly don’t see trash cans full of Perfect Prep at the end of the day (not that I’ve ever seen, anyway).
The EC equine medication pamphlet can be read here: http://equinecanada.ca/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=7766&Itemid=88&lang=en
Edited to add that it appears there can be suspensions for the horse as well: http://www.equinecanada.ca/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=7695&Itemid=88&lang=en
Who were the judges today. Trying to pull it up but very slow service
[QUOTE=Night Flight;8302670]
Canada’s is a little bit different than USEF’s policy. We use a “Person Responsible” who is designated on the entry form, and they may be anyone from the trainer to the owner to the rider. The person who signs as the “Person Responsible” is the one who will be affected by a positive drug test.
Canada allows fewer medications (Dex, Robaxin, Naproxen, Equioxx, for example, are illegal here) and it just feels like we have a different take on the hunters. I’m sure that some drugging must occur but severely limiting the permitted medications seems to help keep things in line a bit more and you don’t hear of many positives. You certainly don’t see trash cans full of Perfect Prep at the end of the day (not that I’ve ever seen, anyway).
The EC equine medication pamphlet can be read here: http://equinecanada.ca/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=7766&Itemid=88&lang=en[/QUOTE]
But the “person responsible” could still end up being some groom right? So a positive test wouldn’t affect the actual trainer or rider and they could continue on business as usual?
[QUOTE=ybiaw;8302675]
But the “person responsible” could still end up being some groom right? So a positive test wouldn’t affect the actual trainer or rider and they could continue on business as usual?[/QUOTE]
Yes, though as I added to my post above, it appears that they do suspend the horse in certain cases as well.
[QUOTE=Night Flight;8302685]
Yes, though as I added to my post above, it appears that they do suspend the horse in certain cases as well.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for clarifying!
10 tubes of perfect prep later and he’s on top of the leader board ladies and gents…
[QUOTE=GypsyQ;8302516]
Wow.
If this country’s (arguably) best combination of bankroll, trainers, horseflesh, and rider talent still feels the need to drug, then what the devil are the rest of us doing here? It essentially proves that the current hunter ideal is, in fact, unachievable.[/QUOTE]
Ha ha go figure just like the female ideal is unachievable too. The American unachievable dream. Nice
[QUOTE=busylady;8302583]
Wow, I actually thought the judges would hold it against her in the $500k…well they did not. 94/95, class leader. Wonder how many tubes of perfect prep he got today?[/QUOTE]
Oh I can’t help myself #9Tubeapalooza
I, 100% agree, with Dags and GypsyQ!
[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8302471]
Steve R openly admitted to giving horses bute daily too (the older ones). The testers should just follow these people around[/QUOTE]
And I take Advil. Bute is not illegal within the USEF defined limits. This is not related to the illegal use of medications.
Great post, dags!
[QUOTE=ybiaw;8302622]
And PP isn’t illegal (though I personally think anything given to alter the performance of the animal shouldn’t be allowed regardless of it’s “legality” in the interest of horse welfare and fair play). [/QUOTE]
FWIW, when I contacted the drugs and meds group about PP I was specifically told that if used to calm, as SR asserts, that it was illegal.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8302652]
The whole idea that anyone can sign the entry form as “trainer” is ridiculous in my opinion. It is too easy to make a random groom or working student the fall guy so that the people like the rider and the actual trainer (in the real sense of the word) always get to walk away unscathed.[/QUOTE]
I’m just a little nobody who does nothing, but I sign my forms as trainer becuase I’m the one with care, custody and control. If I screw up, my trainer (who acts as both coach and trainer these days) should not be responsible.
I can’t remember who pointed out that most of today’s top juniors have grown up in barns where PP and other meds are so prevalent that they may not even question their use. It’s a sad state of affairs becuase they will be the pros of tomorrow.
When I am standing by a ring and a trainer is radioing back to the barn to give the PP becuase the horse is about an hour out from showing and doing so openly? The rules are jokes and those who follow them become the ones who are penalized. At least they will have their integrity to keep them warm at night.
[QUOTE=supernatural;8302671]
Who were the judges today. Trying to pull it up but very slow service[/QUOTE]
Jim Clapperton and Frank Willard
Maybe make it simpler, and just say any division that’s a National HOTY division, so that should cover Juniors, AOs, and the Green and HP divisions, while the Zone/unrec divisions like the Adults (which can jog in some zones) and SS remain under slightly less stringent standards? I think I’d still prefer to see the horse set down, though, as it is with FEI.
I can’t imagine even trying a #9Tubeapalooza with my mare. She’d be so indignant by the 3rd tube that til you were done, her attitude would totally negate whatever you were trying to achieve with the meds :lol:
[QUOTE=JenEM;8302750]
Maybe make it simpler, and just say any division that’s a National HOTY division, so that should cover Juniors, AOs, and the Green and HP divisions, while the Zone/unrec divisions like the Adults (which can jog in some zones) and SS remain under slightly less stringent standards? I think I’d still prefer to see the horse set down, though, as it is with FEI.
I can’t imagine even trying a #9Tubeapalooza with my mare. She’d be so indignant by the 3rd tube that til you were done, her attitude would totally negate whatever you were trying to achieve with the meds :lol:[/QUOTE]
Yes! I just mentioned anything with a jog so that division ponies would also be covered. But do they jog? Or just model? I haven’t watched ponies in…a really long time. And I agree about setting the horse down. I’m sure the horse wouldn’t care about a 7 month vacation. :lol:
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8302620]
It would be interesting to know if any of the other National Federations drug programs are similar to the USEFs. All of them have serious responsibilities for juniors and amateurs. Did they adopt the FEI standards or have they gone their own ways?
I’ll grant that they don’t have hunters, but should that make a difference?[/QUOTE]
I spoke to my friend in the UK this morning and asked her this very question. She said that all of their “rated” shows follow an FEI policy including pony jumpers (she has a 10 year old daughter). Further, that in Europe if a horse is caught with a banned substance the rider and horse are suspended, even if the child is a minor. Hence, Sophie Simpson being suspended by the FEI and she is technically a minor. My friend said they do not allow therapeutic amounts of bute, dex or banamine. So then why do we need them here, whereas the whole continent of Europe functions without anti-inflammatory medications. If a horse needs those medications, then maybe it should drop down to non-rated shows where they would be allowed. Non-rated shows in Europe do not necessarily adhere to FEI policies and do so according to their local governing bodies.
For reference, here is the British Equestrian Federation’s Doping policies: http://www.britishshowjumping.co.uk/membership/Clean-Sport-Policy
In the UK, if a horse is injured at a rated show or necessitates a controlled substance, then with vet approval it can be administered, but usually the vet will require the horse be withdrawn if the medication is deemed to have a “performance enhancing” effect. The responsible party is allowed to give a controlled substance before showing but it must be out of the horse’s system at the time of competition.
I don’t see why hunters require Perfect Prep, bute, and banamine while Europe seems to function without them even at the lower levels. Granted their “lower levels” are 1.10m. And FYI according to USEF’s rulebook standards, Perfect Prep is illegal since it intends to alter the state of mind of the horse - it just doesn’t test.
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