Colvin Civil Suit

It was a slow day at work today and I entertained myself by keeping up with this thread.

I am puzzled though - as an Arab owner - I’m pretty sure that it is standard protocol that champion and reserve champion in each national championship class are drug tested. And some random number from the classes or top ten. (Tried to scan through the rule book to get the exact protocol but it’s Friday and I’m feeling lazy and didn’t look too hard!) Am I understanding it correctly that in the h/j world this is not the standard approach to drug testing? It’s just random selection?

If that’s the case, and this whole cluster doodle is typical, wow, yeah, there apparently needs to be lots more testing. :cry:

(And, lest you think I’m pointing fingers, living in a glass house, etc etc I’ll just stipulate right now that the Arab world has its own contingent of folks who are needle happy, whip happy, tail altering happy, plastic surgery happy, and lunge happy. Shame on all of these jokers, no matter what discipline they show in!)

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8303047]
Kinsella,

If I understand you correctly, IF a person listed as trainer came in and IF he told you to take him off the entry blank as trainer and substitute Mrs. XXXX, you would not assure him that you would do it, right? So, if he testified to that under oath he would be committing perjury?

Just want to make it clear, perjury-wise.

Because IF a person were to commit perjury on this issue, the rest of his testimony might be considered to be less credible. :)[/QUOTE]

I would have never told a trainer I would do that, so if it happened as you stated, yes, he would be committing perjury… No one else I know would have told a trainer that either, fwiw.

"Lord Helpus… So, although Tori tried to stand up to Ken, the result was that she and her mom (and Dr B’s horses) were kicked out. If you were 17 and tried to stand up for something that did not feel right, and it backfired big time, would you feel comfortable about trying to make your voice heard again?

I am piecing tidbits together, to come up with a plausible scenario, but, as always, I could be wrong about everything."

Don’t want to make assumptions (and certainly don’t know if what is presented here is a fair representation) but it seems to be said is that really be said here is that because standing up for what one believed in had ad"verse consequences, it is unreasonable to expect someone to stand up again.

As difficult as it is, this position must be rejected. Only by bolstering those who stand firm for the rules and the welfare of the horses will things change. There is an old saying attributed to Burke and others “All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing” It is important to create an atmosphere where speaking out is valued.

[QUOTE=juststartingout;8303219]
Don’t want to make assumptions (and certainly don’t know if what is presented here is a fair representation) but it seems to be said is that really be said here is that because standing up for what one believed in had ad"verse consequences, it is unreasonable to expect someone to stand up again.

As difficult as it is, this position must be rejected. Only by bolstering those who stand firm for the rules and the welfare of the horses will things change. There is an old saying attributed to Burke and others “All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing” It is important to create an atmosphere where speaking out is valued.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone here disputes that line of thinking (I certainly don’t). The point is that it might be a tad unrealistic to expect anyone under the age of 18 to stand up for herself in situations like this when EVERY SINGLE ADULT (including her PARENT) breaks the rules as though they don’t even exist. The point is that there is not a SINGLE ADULT in this scenario who seems to be able to back up a child who DOES care about the rules and the horses’ welfare. In situations where the child is the only one with a conscience, that child is in a really tough position.

juststarting - you do have a point about what SHOULD happen. But what SHOULD happen is not always what actually happens. It takes a lot to stand up to someone you look/looked up to - especially if you have done it before and the results were less than rewarding. I don’t know many adults that would go back for a second try after the way the first turned out, I certainly wouldn’t expect it of a child.

[QUOTE=supernatural;8302194]
On Saturday at Upperville 2015 in the Junior Hunter Ring the drug testers were there. Small Juniors went first. Way Cool did larges and mind you everyone knows drug testers are there at the Junior Hunter Ring. Day before he did two rounds in Eve and Paul Fout Handy Hunter scores in high and low 90’s. Rider is 1st and 2nd overall in the 10k class …no testers. Next day in larges Way Cool wild, bolts after last class takes off and still gets 74 . Sunday…no testers at Junior Ring…score Way Cool…100.

I hope all the people sponsoring, media and especially the judges will take a hard look at this. If it seems too good to be true it probably is. Yes, I feel bad for this girl. None of the people she has been subjected to have any moral character. They do whatever they have to do to win. In light of what the horse world and people know…none of these horses or these people should be inducted to Hall of Fame. This rider rides very well and will probably go on to great things but as long as she is around these people others in this industry will have a hard time believing its her talent and not chemicals creating her genius.

There are a lot of really good trainers and riders out there winning without cheating and drugging. The round that got a 100 at Upperville…not a 100. The judges on that day were determined to make history at Upperville in the Junior ring and give this rider her first 100. People heard the ingate girl tell the judges in the booth the rider had never gotten a 100 and then voila…there it was…and everyone made a huge deal. Guess what people…that horse was drugged. Can I prove it…no…but hey…it had at least 9 paste tubes of something something and went from bolting 74 on Sat with drug testers at ingate to 100 on Sunday…no testers in sight. I’m not stupid. Neither r u.

All the championships this kid has won in the last few years on these horses mean nothing in my book. It is a shame but it is what it is…[/QUOTE]

At what point in any of this was Way Cool mentioned as being involved? The horse was 1st or 2nd in every class at Upperville, so it was obviously a different horse that bolted. (And I know damn well that a score of 74 isn’t going to get 1st or 2nd in ANY class at Upperville) Maybe double check the results (they’re quite easy to find) before trying to taint a score that need not be tainted. There’s enough bullsh!t going around in this thread that I just can’t let facts be ignored on this particular one…

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8303226]
I don’t think anyone here disputes that line of thinking (I certainly don’t). The point is that it might be a tad unrealistic to expect anyone under the age of 18 to stand up for herself in situations like this when EVERY SINGLE ADULT (including her PARENT) breaks the rules as though they don’t even exist. The point is that there is not a SINGLE ADULT in this scenario who seems to be able to back up a child who DOES care about the rules and the horses’ welfare. In situations where the child is the only one with a conscience, that child is in a really tough position.[/QUOTE]

Certainly understand your point and not minimizing the difficulty. And, if these were children (for example 10 year olds) would probably agree. However, juniors aged 16, 17 are capable of disagreeing with their elders and most do so in many ways. Perhaps the USEF should create an ombudsman position (a confidential person) to whom juniors could report their concerns. To just accept that its ok for them to go along and not be responsible is well, irresponsible

[QUOTE=juststartingout;8303237]
However, juniors aged 16, 17 are capable of disagreeing with their elders and most do so in many ways.[/QUOTE]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this. Juniors at 16 or 17 are still completely dependent on the adults in their lives, and I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect them to take a stand against every single one of them, no matter how completely wrong and unethical those adults are. In a perfect world, that might happen and the adults would all realize that the kid is right and think “what the hell are we doing? Let’s change our ways starting right now!”. But we are clearly not living in a perfect world and that scenario is not at all likely to happen.

What you are talking about when you say most teenagers disagree with their elders in many ways is what is known as being rebellious, which is the opposite of standing up for what is right when every elder around you is doing everything that is wrong. I can see how one might see it as the same thing, but it’s not.

One thing I was thinking, for SS to kick out BC, VC and BP, I think it would be more than disagreement over a training technique. That’s a mighty big client to lose.

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8303119]
I don’t know how Lactanase helps honestly. We’ve had 3 horses come with instructions that they have to show on it. We asked our vet, and he said its one of those things like Dex, people think it makes them quiet but it really doesn’t do anything. At least that’s what our Vet says.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for replying.

[QUOTE=caballogurl;8303148]
This! 15 year old horses compete in Europe under FEI rules. Maybe we shouldn’t be putting a 16 year old horse in three to four hunter classes a day, and instead give them more vacations. Better management = sounder horses.

If the horse really needs meds then they can step down to the non-rated level. But this will never happen because show management and trainers make 90% of their money off clients who would be best served at the county level. I have young horses and I keep them at county shows until they are ready to at minimum do 1.10m and the young horse classes.[/QUOTE]

Again… for a lot of us (at least people I know) the word “need” is not it and we don’t give a gram of Bute to our horses because they are lame and we may show in 3 Hunter rounds on two days out of a week once or twice a month. Once again I use the human analogy… do you take Advil? As a 53yo rider I take it if I think I exerted myself harder than normal… not because I’m limping but because I think that reducing inflammation is healthy and allows me to do more which makes me fitter which is again… healthier for me. I feel the same way about my horses but I need to decide for them since they can’t tell me.

My horses have vacations and are well managed. I don’t show unsound horses or even horses that feel at all NQR.

[QUOTE=jmjhp;8303245]
One thing I was thinking, for SS to kick out BC, VC and BP, I think it would be more than disagreement over a training technique. That’s a mighty big client to lose.[/QUOTE]

FWIW, Betsee wasn’t ever kicked out of Rivers Edge. The Colvins were asked to leave, and they went to Heritage. BP (and KLD) chose to keep Tori as the rider on the horses that she was currently showing for them- BPs hunters and KLDs jumpers.
Scott still shows several of BPs horses in the pro divisions, and his clients/riders show her ponies, so I wouldn’t say BP has been lost as a client of Scott/Kens.

Scott has kicked out big clients before. Becky Gochman ring a bell? He doesn’t need Betsee or the Colvins. Has quite a business without them.

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8303290]
Scott has kicked out big clients before. Becky Gochman ring a bell? He doesn’t need Betsee or the Colvins. Has quite a business without them.[/QUOTE]

The Gochman’s are back with Scott and have been for quite a while.

I’m going to be the voice of cynicism again. The fact that Tori stood up to Ken over training techniques does not necessarily mean she has a conscience. It means he was doing something that she thought was less likely to result in a win. Period.

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8303317]
The Gochman’s are back with Scott and have been for quite a while.[/QUOTE]

Were they not with Peter Pletcher for a while?

Is it possible that because VC cares more about jumpers then hunters/eq that she turned a blind eye to anything that was happening behind closed doors when it came to BP horses ??

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8303317]
The Gochman’s are back with Scott and have been for quite a while.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but he did kick them out before. They were with Peter Pletcher for a while.

[QUOTE=m&m;8303321]
I’m going to be the voice of cynicism again. The fact that Tori stood up to Ken over training techniques does not necessarily mean she has a conscience. It means he was doing something that she thought was less likely to result in a win. Period.[/QUOTE]

Bingo.

My gut tells me that she is fully aware of the medicating practices and participates in the decisions concerning dosage and administration. Just my opinion of course.

[QUOTE=2bayboys;8303344]
Bingo.

My gut tells me that she is fully aware of the medicating practices and participates in the decisions concerning dosage and administration. Just my opinion of course.[/QUOTE]

It’s my opinion as well. I think it is much more likely the rift between ken and tori had to do with her disappointment in her results. I just can’t imagine them booting her out because she refused a questionable training method, but I can imagine them kicking out a mouthy teenager. Pure conjecture, but just my opinion.

The COTH story on brigid’s temporary stay was disappointing to say the least. COTH, by failing to present the full story (including the fact that the show cause hearing will occur sometime around the 16th and the stay may be lifted) and disclosing at least some of what was revealed in the transcript, even though it means presenting a family you love to celebrate in a negative light, you are standing in the way of real change. The light must be shown brightly and the cheaters taken off the pedestal if reform is ever going to occur.

The USEF found Stewart, who runs Rivers Edge in Flemington, N.J., in violation for exhibiting Krista Weisman’s Reality during Week 7 of the FTI Winter Equestrian Festival in Wellington, Fla., Feb. 20-24, after he’d been administered an excess amount of flunixin, aka Banamine. He was fined $2,500, and Weisman was ordered to pay $300 to WEF and return prize money and prizes.

Stewart explained that Reality had been administered a dose of Banamine paste by a Rivers Edge employee. He also noted that Reality has been treated for laminitic symptoms, which affected his metabolism.

“He was originally on Pergolide, which we withdrew him from when he showed,” said Brigid Colvin, who helps manage Rivers Edge horses at competitions. “He had another laminitic episode, and his veterinarian changed medications and put him on metformin, 8000 mg a day, which is a medication also given to humans for diabetes. We saw a big difference in him when he was on that—his metabolism was completely different.”

Colvin said that per USEF rules, they withdrew Reality from metformin before he showed.

Stewart incurred two other medication violations in 2011.

“We know when we’re going to the ring every day we’re getting drug tested,” said Stewart. “We’re tested regularly, probably 120 tests [during the FTI Winter Equestrian Festival], and we’ve had horses tested multiple times a day. This was an overage of a legal substance. We have a big barn with excellent staff, but there’s always a possibility for human error.” *

I know this is from 2013, but it goes to show that both SS and BC were pretty open about the fact that she helps manage the horses and their medications directly. So for her to say she has absolutely nothing to do with any drugs that may get administered to TC’s rides seems pretty false if you look at her own past interview quotes, along with what SS also has to say about BC’s role in the daily workings of his farm.

Now I get that this is a couple years later and maybe at this point they are trying to put BC in the position to take the fall for Inclusive’s recent positive drug test when in reality someone else may have been involved at least if not actually responsible. But there is no credible way that BC can say she has never medicated the horses in their care due to her shaking hands or whatever the heck else she wants to say prevents her. I don’t buy for a minute that she could only do an injection IM if a horse was dying. She said herself clearly that she helps run the horse’s medications and she clearly also knows exactly what meds are what here.