[QUOTE=handwalk;8302985]
If USEF changes to FEI rules they’ll have to test differently for the “breeds.” Bet that would be a nightmare.[/QUOTE]
why would that be ?
if USEF does a blanket change, breeds and disciplines fall under the rules
[QUOTE=Rescuer;8302932]
Eric Lamaze was caught in FEI testing wasn’t he? I wasn’t following the horse world so much at that point and just remember my parents giving me the “this is what happens if you use drugs!!” shpeal. I don’t remember the rest of the details around that whole scenario. Was it during Olympic trials maybe?[/QUOTE]
He wasn’t caught by the FEI, but by the Canadian Olympic team or something like that. So I don’t believe he received a suspension, he was just removed from the team. He was however, banned from Spruce Meadows for a time.
The ASB world could not go drug-free LOL
I think that they gave the horse a double dose of GABA. Since BC admitted to thinking the horse was too fresh, I think she gave him what was it, .5-2.5CC? of CG and SR had already given Inclusive the amount Scott told him in the instructions. Because wasn’t he at 190 bpm and the allowed amount 60bpm?
This would explain why BC would maybe give her name, because she knew she was safe with what she had given him? And maybe Betsee and others saw this coming and that’s why they wanted Stevens name off.
Also Steven was down as her trainer at Upperville, go to Horse Shows Online. So why the change there? Because Brigid wasn’t involved maybe?
[QUOTE=dags;8303007]
We have an enormous amount of hobbyists at the shows, there is zero reason to go all FEI on the sport in America. We have $5000 classes with 40 adults jumping 2’3" fences, it cannot be compared to what is truly a “sport” in Germany (ps, that is a compliment to Germany).
It is hard enough trying to place horses 12+ years and older, they are all going to be out of a job if they have to do this just on what god gave them. They predominantly live in stalls, live on concrete at the shows, if they are in a good program they are jumping way more each show week than they would ever jump at home. They are teaching child after child after child how to ride and as long as they are doing this they are safe and have a home.
We put them in this position. Which is justifiable, because otherwise there would be no horses. But we also are now responsible for making this totally unnatural way of living as comfortable as possible.
This is not condoning the drugging. It is simply Don’t. Take Away. My Bute. (insert Advil, Aspirin, MSM, et al).
And anyway, NSAIDS are not the problem here. In fact, I would venture to say the problem here is a uniquely hunter problem, which the FEI doesn’t even recognize.
So blanket FEI Way or The Highway is not, IMO, going to magically solve this problem. And it will probably do more damage than good to a number of teen-aged horses.
I really like the idea of cracking down specifically on the HOTY divisions. Implement some pristine requirements at those levels. Section off and go all FEI stabling style on the Derby finalists. If you or your young horse ever want to have a shot at that level, better start practicing a sober ride now.[/QUOTE]
THIS!
Upperville
They were all at the Upperville 2015 ingate…BC, SR. AD and other Heritage crew…not seen very often was BP…and no S.S. that I saw anywhere…didnt seem like any rift to me. I’m wondering are we the general membership being played. Is USEF being played…why would any of these people , in light of hearing testimony, still have anything to do with each other. It jyst doesn’t add up…or maybe it does and the players here are much smarter than we give them credit.
I completely agree with the notion that the top horses in a division (i.e. champion and reserve be drug tested). Combine that with random tests of X number of horses and that would be a major step in the right direction.
I agree also. In addition, make the testers a little less conspicuous. You can spot them a mile away when they’re on the grounds.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8303076]
I think that they gave the horse a double dose of GABA. Since BC admitted to thinking the horse was too fresh, I think she gave him what was it, .5-2.5CC? of CG and SR had already given Inclusive the amount Scott told him in the instructions. Because wasn’t he at 190 bpm and the allowed amount 60bpm?
This would explain why BC would maybe give her name, because she knew she was safe with what she had given him? And maybe Betsee and others saw this coming and that’s why they wanted Stevens name off.
Also Steven was down as her trainer at Upperville, go to Horse Shows Online. So why the change there? Because Brigid wasn’t involved maybe?[/QUOTE]
I agree. Recall BC explained he hits poles when he is too quiet, she even gave jr hunter finals as an example (for f-sake), so maybe Betsee’s real reason for keeping her away was to prevent an over medication and a rail down.
No one knows what Lactinase is or how it works in conjunction with GABA and PP?
Throwing this out there: perhaps if we made all A-rated shows subject to FEI-guidelines, for all divisions at those shows, it would promote the growth and development of the B and C-rated shows?
Let the big money players in the big divisions play under FEI rules; the older campaigners that need some help can do their 3 foot and 2’6" courses at the B and C shows.
If I have this right —
This week, Tori is riding Inclusive, who is the horse that tested positive, thereby starting this downward spiral, at Saugerties.
Tori’s mother is not allowed on the showgrounds because she has been set down based, in part, because of the testimony of Rivett, who is the employee of, and supported by, Dr. Betsee.
Who owns the horse that Tori is riding.
This sounds like the “daisy chain” of old. (You younger types might want to ask your parents about this reference. 
)
What “hold” does Dr. Betsee have over Tori anymore? In 3 months Tori will be out of juniors, Dr Betsee’s horses will all be retired, and Tori will be exclusively at Heritage with jumpers bought specifically for her by one or more backers.
Are their only remaining ties indoors for the hunters (which, if Tori were not to ride at those 3 shows, it would not hurt her at all, either from an experience standpoint or a reputation standpoint) and the eq horse(s) which Dr Betsee still owns.
Seems to me that Heritage is full of wonderful eq horses (it takes back ups to the medal finals in case they are needed). If Tori was to ride one and win on it, the horse’s value would be tripled. So it would be a win/win for both Tori and Heritage.
Since Dr Betsee has not shown any loyalty to Brigid, why doesn’t/shouldn’t Tori just walk away now?
[QUOTE=Madeline;8303046]
Larry Bramlage, high level racehorse vet, said a few weeks ago something to the effect that things would be better for the horses if the people in charge understood that lameness was a symptom, not the problem.
That would cut down bute use for those old troopers, if in fact, the responsible people actually gave a damn about horses…[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, in too many cases, that is a very big IF.
I don’t know how Lactanase helps honestly. We’ve had 3 horses come with instructions that they have to show on it. We asked our vet, and he said its one of those things like Dex, people think it makes them quiet but it really doesn’t do anything. At least that’s what our Vet says.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8303103]
If I have this right —
This week, Tori is riding Inclusive, who is the horse that tested positive, starting this downward spiral, at Saugerties this week.
Tori’s mother is not allowed on the showgrounds because she has been set down based, in part, because of the testimony of Rivett, who is the employee of, and supported by, Dr. Betsee.
Who owns the horse that Tori is riding.
This sounds like the “daisy chain” of old. (You younger types might want to ask your parents about this reference. )
What “hold” does Dr. Betsee have over Tori anymore? In 3 months Tori will be out of juniors, Dr Betsee’s horses will all be retired, and Tori will be exclusively at Heritage with jumpers bought specifically for her by one or more backers.
Are their only remaining ties indoors for the hunters (which, if Tori were not to ride at those 3 shows, it would not hurt her at all, either from an experience standpoint or a reputation standpoint) and the eq horse(s) which Dr Betsee still owns.
Seems to me that Heritage is full of wonderful eq horses (it takes back ups to the medal finals in case they are needed). If Tori was to ride one and win on it, the horse’s value would be tripled. So it would be a win/win for both Tori and Heritage.
Since Dr Betsee has not shown any loyalty to Brigid, why doesn’t/shouldn’t Tori just walk away now?[/QUOTE]
Brigid was set down by the USEF for the GABA infraction, not because of the testimony discussed here. I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread that she is allowed on the show grounds because her suspension is on hold due to the court proceedings. I might not be remembering correctly - it’s hard to keep everything straight.
What I don’t understand is, if Scott told everyone that Brigid was doing something horrible to the horses and didn’t want her around anymore, why would Betsee take her horses out of Scott’s program, move them to Andre, and take Brigid with her? Unless she really really wanted Tori to keep the rides badly enough that the only way she could do that is to take Brigid too.
The other thing that is odd is that Tori refused to follow Ken’s training advice, which seems to be what started this whole mess. If she was able to stand up to him in that instance, why would she be okay with giving the horses GABA? That almost makes it seem as though she wasn’t aware that was going on. I have a hard time believing that, but she rides so many that she is probably not in the barn when the horses are being prepared to go down to the ring.
One other thing - if Inclusive was inadvertently given a double dose of GABA at the derby finals, and if he hits rails when he’s over-prepared, how did he win that class? (I know there is no evidence to suggest this happened, but it was brought up as a theoretical possibility)
There are enough gaps in this soap opera that you could steer a cruise ship through them.
I think you missed that Ms. Colvin got a stay. She is able to be on the horse show grounds.
This! 15 year old horses compete in Europe under FEI rules. Maybe we shouldn’t be putting a 16 year old horse in three to four hunter classes a day, and instead give them more vacations. Better management = sounder horses.
If the horse really needs meds then they can step down to the non-rated level. But this will never happen because show management and trainers make 90% of their money off clients who would be best served at the county level. I have young horses and I keep them at county shows until they are ready to at minimum do 1.10m and the young horse classes.
After reading all of this week’s “drugged and sored
horses diaries”, as a former drug and alcohol counselor I think I am going to open a farm for horses in withdrawal. I am so disgusted by all of this . Does anyone at the higher levels consider the horse anymore?
[QUOTE=nekvt;8303156]
Does anyone at the higher levels consider the horse anymore?[/QUOTE]
Yes.
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8303129]
Brigid was set down by the USEF for the GABA infraction, not because of the testimony discussed here. I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread that she is allowed on the show grounds because her suspension is on hold due to the court proceedings. I might not be remembering correctly - it’s hard to keep everything straight.
What I don’t understand is, if Scott told everyone that Brigid was doing something horrible to the horses and didn’t want her around anymore, why would Betsee take her horses out of Scott’s program, move them to Andre, and take Brigid with her? Unless she really really wanted Tori to keep the rides badly enough that the only way she could do that is to take Brigid too.
The other thing that is odd is that Tori refused to follow Ken’s training advice, which seems to be what started this whole mess. If she was able to stand up to him in that instance, why would she be okay with giving the horses GABA? That almost makes it seem as though she wasn’t aware that was going on. I have a hard time believing that, but she rides so many that she is probably not in the barn when the horses are being prepared to go down to the ring.
One other thing - if Inclusive was inadvertently given a double dose of GABA at the derby finals, and if he hits rails when he’s over-prepared, how did he win that class? (I know there is no evidence to suggest this happened, but it was brought up as a theoretical possibility)
There are enough gaps in this soap opera that you could steer a cruise ship through them.[/QUOTE]
Yes, Brigid was set down for the GABA infraction, but her appeal was denied. And the denial of the appeal was based on the testimony we have read, which was submitted in support of the civil case.
Re: the bolded language:
As I understand it, Tori was not happy with Ken’s schooling methods, so she called SS (I think) who then talked to Ken who told Scott “It’s me or that Colvin kid” (obviously I was not privy to any of these conversations, so I am taking great license with the verbiage 
). Which is when and why Brigid, and Dr. B’s horses etc. were escorted off SS’s place, before Brigid even got home.
So, although Tori tried to stand up to Ken, the result was that she and her mom (and Dr B’s horses) were kicked out. If you were 17 and tried to stand up for something that did not feel right, and it backfired big time, would you feel comfortable about trying to make your voice heard again?
I am piecing tidbits together, to come up with a plausible scenario, but, as always, I could be wrong about everything.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8303167]
Yes, Brigid was set down for the GABA infraction, but her appeal was denied. And the denial of the appeal was based on the testimony we have read, which was submitted in support of the civil case.
Re: the bolded language:
As I understand it, Tori was not happy with Ken’s schooling methods, so she called SS (I think) who then talked to Ken who told Scott “It’s me or that Colvin kid” (obviously I was not privy to any of these conversations, so I am taking great license with the verbiage ). Which is when and why Brigid, and Dr. B’s horses etc. were escorted off SS’s place, before Brigid even got home.
So, although Tori tried to stand up to Ken, the result was that she and her mom (and Dr B’s horses) were kicked out. If you were 17 and tried to stand up for something that did not feel right, and it backfired big time, would you feel comfortable about trying to make your voice heard again?
I am piecing tidbits together, to come up with a plausible scenario, but, as always, I could be wrong about everything.[/QUOTE]
No, I’m the one who brought up the fact that not many 17 years olds WOULD be able to stand up to her elders in a situation like that. But presumably the GABA use was a regular occurrence in that barn, so I was wondering, if she was able to assert herself regarding the training method she didn’t agree with, why wouldn’t she have done the same at some point with regards to the GABA use? And one possible reason for that is that she wasn’t aware that was happening. Again, purely conjecture on my part.
I thought the transcript alluded to the fact that Scott was throwing Brigid under the bus with regards to her horse management practices, and that was part of the reason for the parting of ways. That’s why I was wondering why Betsee would take her horses out of Scott’s program and take Brigid with her. I could very well not be remembering things correctly. I thought at first that Brigid was the one holding the horse when it was tested, but when I read the transcript again I discovered that I was mistaken about that, so I could very well be mistaken about other aspects of this train wreck.
