[QUOTE=busylady;8300827]
Not exactly, recall the part about the disagreement between Tori and Ken at NAYRC. Something along the lines of Ken wanting to use a certain training technique that Tori didn’t agree with and Tori apparently telling Ken off.[/QUOTE]
If that’s really what happened then kudos to her. She seems like a good kid.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8302914]
I believe that there are human drug rules for FEI competitions. Also, riders are subject to WADA rules for Olympic sports. I don’t know much about other international competitions. I also don’t know if any rider has ever been tested or busted for anything. To note, under WADA rules, alcohol is not generally prohibited , except for certain sports. So, ammys, fear not. :D[/QUOTE]
Eric Lamaze was caught in FEI testing wasn’t he? I wasn’t following the horse world so much at that point and just remember my parents giving me the “this is what happens if you use drugs!!” shpeal. I don’t remember the rest of the details around that whole scenario. Was it during Olympic trials maybe?
[QUOTE=equisusan;8302918]
LOL I’m pretty sure I couldn’t drink and find a distance to save my life. Ha!
I would be curious what drugs they prohibit for humans. Illegal drugs I can imagine… anabolic steroids if that would even be of help to a rider. But I’d just be shocked a rider couldn’t take an Advil. I’m too old for this. Ha ha.[/QUOTE]
NSAIDs are not on WADA’s lists. Generally steroids (of all kinds–for some you might be able to get a TUE, depending on the sport), beta blockers (certain sports), growth hormone type things, stimulants, illegal drugs, etc.
[QUOTE=equisusan;8302918]
I would be curious what drugs they prohibit for humans. Illegal drugs I can imagine… anabolic steroids if that would even be of help to a rider. But I’d just be shocked a rider couldn’t take an Advil. I’m too old for this. Ha ha.[/QUOTE]
Here you go. Select: Athlete, Equestrian, and United States, and then have a ball.
[QUOTE=equisusan;8302923]
I’m not opposed to those rules for USEF. Do they have the same zero tolerance for the riders in Germany?[/QUOTE]
Not that i am aware of! I guess the thought behind is that the Rider is the one deciding if he or she can ride. Your horse can not really say no. If you say you can ride, you Do it at your own risk.
But keep in mind that the competition here is not compareable to yours in like finals. We have championships but more like young riders than like regionals. Over here you try to win but do not care as much at which show. But we mostly show in diffrent divions like depending on experince and not age or pro
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8302936]
NSAIDs are not on WADA’s lists. Generally steroids (of all kinds–for some you might be able to get a TUE, depending on the sport), beta blockers (certain sports), growth hormone type things, stimulants, illegal drugs, etc.[/QUOTE]
Yes thank you for the link. So I can take an anti inflammatory and my horse cannot if we were under FEI rules. Hey I’m a rule follower so I would follow whatever rules I’m under but it seems a bit odd.
I’m really not supporting the use of drugs but I am 53 and I have to take some meds sometimes when I creak. LOL
I’m pretty sure Eric Lamaze was caught with cocaine or another illegal substance.
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8301891]
I understand this thought process - I really do. But then I remember what it was like to be 17 years old, and I just can’t imagine myself at that age being in the situation where every adult in my presence was in agreement that drugging the horses I was going to ride was perfectly acceptable and necessary, and that anyone would expect that I would be able to stand up to all of them and say, “No, this is not acceptable and I am not going to stand for it”. And I can’t think of a single friend of mine at that age who would have been able to do that either.
It’s all good and fine (and easy) to point out that these kids are a year or less from being considered adults by law, but it’s not at all easy at that age to take a stand against your parents and their peers when every single one of them is so completely comfortable with doing something that everyone knows is absolutely wrong.
I did post on the other thread that Sophie Simpson deserves to be suspended, so I might sound as though I’m contradicting myself. And maybe I am. The opinion I stated above applies to both of the kids, but I agree with Sophie’s suspension because that is the rule that the FEI has in place at this time. I’m not convinced that junior riders should be suspended under any association’s rules, but the FEI already has that rule in place, so there is no alternative but to suspend her.[/QUOTE]
Read this - thought about it and thought about it again… But do not agree. The message must be that doing the right thing matters and that each of us individually is responsible for our choices (unless we are truly children without the ability to know and understand the rules). There must be be logical consequences for not doing the right thing. It is easy to say - less easy to do - but integrity matters.
In fact there are juniors who who say no - know a number of them who are talented, hard working, excellent riders and above all horsemen. These juniors have a moral strength and self confidence to stand there ground in the face of the culture you describe. And, they know, everyone of them, that they pay a high price for their convictions. They are the juniors who are not working students for many of the barns because they do know the what goes on. They are juniors who don’t get rides and sometimes turn them down because of what goes on. They are juniors who will be professionals someday and will not take the easy route.
So - like students who pay a penalty for plagiarism whether done purposely or accidentally, its time to say that we are responsible for our decisions and actions. Just because its hard does not mean it should not be expected.
The thing is you can say yes i am in pain and need medication but i am also in shape to compete. But your horse only can show that something is not well.
I only remember riders getting caught for real drugs. There are some riders who can see a distance better than me when i am sober and they are really, really drunk. And i would not know of a drug really helping an equestrian to ride better expect pain meds
[QUOTE=equisusan;8302950]
Yes thank you for the link. So I can take an anti inflammatory and my horse cannot if we were under FEI rules. Hey I’m a rule follower so I would follow whatever rules I’m under but it seems a bit odd.[/QUOTE]
I think the argument would be that if we want to kill our pain and keep on competing, have at it. But don’t make that choice for the horse.
There is a LOT of discussion about what should and should not be banned. In running, thyroid medications are not banned - some feel that they should be, and that they are being abused. The supplement DHEA, which is sometimes prescribed to menopausal women, is banned - some feel it shouldn’t be.
They’ve gone back and forth on pseudo-ephedrine (active ingredient in Claritin-D) - currently it’s allowed below a certain threshhold. I think they used to have a threshold for caffeine, but have since dropped it. That would never fly in the horse show world :).
Another difference - our equine testing is only IN competition, I believe. You’re allowed to use anything you want if the horse is just being ridden at home. For human testing, there is stuff that is prohibited only in competition, and then stuff that’s banned at any time (testosterone, EPO, etc).
/geeking (I’m simultaneously following doping/drugging discussions in the horsey world and the running world, and it’s interesting to compare and contrast)
I do understand that I can make a decision for myself and that I can’t truly know if my horse needs a gram of Bute. I guess under the current rules I err on the side of helping them be comfortable. If the drug testers want to follow me around I’m ok with that. I don’t break rules. I am not cheating. My horses don’t show a lot. I don’t lunge. I really have the best interest of my horses at heart. If the rules change I’ll follow those too.
If USEF changes to FEI rules they’ll have to test differently for the “breeds.” Bet that would be a nightmare.
We have an enormous amount of hobbyists at the shows, there is zero reason to go all FEI on the sport in America. We have $5000 classes with 40 adults jumping 2’3" fences, it cannot be compared to what is truly a “sport” in Germany (ps, that is a compliment to Germany).
It is hard enough trying to place horses 12+ years and older, they are all going to be out of a job if they have to do this just on what god gave them. They predominantly live in stalls, live on concrete at the shows, if they are in a good program they are jumping way more each show week than they would ever jump at home. They are teaching child after child after child how to ride and as long as they are doing this they are safe and have a home.
We put them in this position. Which is justifiable, because otherwise there would be no horses. But we also are now responsible for making this totally unnatural way of living as comfortable as possible.
This is not condoning the drugging. It is simply Don’t. Take Away. My Bute. (insert Advil, Aspirin, MSM, et al).
And anyway, NSAIDS are not the problem here. In fact, I would venture to say the problem here is a uniquely hunter problem, which the FEI doesn’t even recognize.
So blanket FEI Way or The Highway is not, IMO, going to magically solve this problem. And it will probably do more damage than good to a number of teen-aged horses.
I really like the idea of cracking down specifically on the HOTY divisions. Implement some pristine requirements at those levels. Section off and go all FEI stabling style on the Derby finalists. If you or your young horse ever want to have a shot at that level, better start practicing a sober ride now.
Let me clarify a few things. NO ONE can walk into a show office and say “I need to change the trainer on XYZ horse to Blah Blah” if Blah Blah isn’t there to sign the entry blank and say that they are indeed in control of the horse. They can come say, hey Blah Blah is training XYZ, I’ll send them in to correct the entry blank. If that doesn’t happen, it’s on the original trainer for not following up.
Be careful comparing the US to Europe when citing use of drugs at competitions. They allow horses to be slaughtered for human consumption - we don’t. Those horses that can’t compete without a little medicinal help? They don’t necessarily go to lower levels of competition… (I have no problem with equine slaughter, for the record).
There is (obviously) more I could say about this, but, no, just no.
[QUOTE=Kinsella;8303009]
Let me clarify a few things. NO ONE can walk into a show office and say “I need to change the trainer on XYZ horse to Blah Blah” if Blah Blah isn’t there to sign the entry blank and say that they are indeed in control of the horse. They can come say, hey Blah Blah is training XYZ, I’ll send them in to correct the entry blank. If that doesn’t happen, it’s on the original trainer for not following up.
Be careful comparing the US to Europe when citing use of drugs at competitions. They allow horses to be slaughtered for human consumption - we don’t. Those horses that can’t compete without a little medicinal help? They don’t necessarily go to lower levels of competition… (I have no problem with equine slaughter, for the record).
There is (obviously) more I could say about this, but, no, just no.[/QUOTE]
I actually think this is a pretty important distinction. I remember traveling through Europe and asking my agent where are the older horses were? Do they typically school children etc? She sort of got silent and I understood it to mean some do become saints for children, but many do not.
Since we don’t have that culture here and we DO recognize the value of having a saintly teenage horse bringing along a kid or shy amateur, I really believe in efforts to make them comfortable. Do we probably go overboard? Yeah, it sometimes reaches abuse, I think, the way we keep some older horses going rather than retiring them. But I’m just not for the idea of completely banning things like bute. Our shows are longer than in Europe and the horses are in tight tent stalls with no turnout.
I really think we probably have the drug rules in place that we need, we just need to change enforcement and punishment (set down the owners and horses).
And I think more dialogue with judges, trainers and exhibitors about pinning hunters that aren’t robots and might be a little playful in the corners. Some by the way, already absolutely do this. They recognize brilliance. All is not lost I just think it will take time and honest conversations.
Ah, there is a huge problem with overmedicating older horses to keep them going, just see who scratches when the testers show. It’s as bad or worse then the calmatives, some of these poor horses need to retire-but that’s not an option in too many barns.
I am NOT talking a gram of Bute for stiffness here either.
Larry Bramlage, high level racehorse vet, said a few weeks ago something to the effect that things would be better for the horses if the people in charge understood that lameness was a symptom, not the problem.
That would cut down bute use for those old troopers, if in fact, the responsible people actually gave a damn about horses…
Kinsella,
If I understand you correctly, IF a person listed as trainer came in and IF he told you to take him off the entry blank as trainer and substitute Mrs. XXXX, you would not assure him that you would do it, right? So, if he testified to that under oath he would be committing perjury?
Just want to make it clear, perjury-wise.
Because IF a person were to commit perjury on this issue, the rest of his testimony might be considered to be less credible. 
[QUOTE=jmjhp;8302826]
So my question is, if BC was willing To tell the tester to put her down as trainer on the drug card, she must’ve not been the one to drug him, otherwise she wouldn’t of offered that up, I would think.[/QUOTE]
This was my thought exactly. Here’s my [perhaps conspiracy theory]. They all knew it was happening and BC was doing it, so they set BC up when the falling out happened. BC’s story is all over the place, so is SR’s. But I cannot imagine, knowing all she openly admits to knowing, BC injects the horse on the way to the ring and then willingly says she’s the trainer. And why all the “you must get your name off as trainer.” Of course, they wouldnt know the horse would be tested, but I can’t see BC admitting she’s the trainer if she knows she just doped the horse.
As for SR not knowing about GABA… Yeah, I am an adult re-rider and have heard of GABA. Studying for my local tiny 2’6" medal final I read about prohibited substances. Reallly???
And after all this, why if TC still riding BPs horses? What a mess.
All I can say is next time my horse does a little spook at a show or feels slightly “too fresh” I am going to give her a big pat, and appreciate that my trainer didn’t give her 9 tubes of something to make her not into a horse anymore.
I always though Perfect Prep didn’t do a thing and was mostly in everyone’s heads. But now I realize the real pros are giving 4+ tubes a day. Maybe in those quantities…
[QUOTE=juststartingout;8302956]
Read this - thought about it and thought about it again… But do not agree. The message must be that doing the right thing matters and that each of us individually is responsible for our choices (unless we are truly children without the ability to know and understand the rules). There must be be logical consequences for not doing the right thing. It is easy to say - less easy to do - but integrity matters.
In fact there are juniors who who say no - know a number of them who are talented, hard working, excellent riders and above all horsemen. These juniors have a moral strength and self confidence to stand there ground in the face of the culture you describe. And, they know, everyone of them, that they pay a high price for their convictions. They are the juniors who are not working students for many of the barns because they do know the what goes on. They are juniors who don’t get rides and sometimes turn them down because of what goes on. They are juniors who will be professionals someday and will not take the easy route.
So - like students who pay a penalty for plagiarism whether done purposely or accidentally, its time to say that we are responsible for our decisions and actions. Just because its hard does not mean it should not be expected.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree with you on this. I am not too much older than Tori and let me tell you, when we make the wrong decision, we know it. The thought process is that we won’t get caught, or it might not go wrong for me, and sometimes it’s just we don’t really care even knowing the consequences.
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