Colvin Civil Suit

[foursocks]

[QUOTE=Midge;8307875]
And once again, I think there are a lot people who give the Perfect Prep, or the #9tubealooza because they think it works, not because they know it works. I mean, 9 tubes? Seriously???[/QUOTE]

Yes- I think this is a huge part of it, too. It’s like a fad- if I don’t do this, I won’t win because other big barns/trainers do it! As far as quantity- if a one joint injection product is good, why not use ALL of the joint injection products?

Or, less ethically and more germane to this discussion: why not use nine tubes of Perfect Prep instead of “only” one?

Poor horses.

[Halt_Near_X]

[QUOTE=poltroon;8307559]
The sanction is not for administration of Perfect Prep (hat tip also to the person who added up the cost of all those tubes), but I feel certain those answers played a role in the determination of what and whether the sanction would be, if only to confirm that this dude is part of the general problem.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but since he admitted under oath that he gave PP with the intent to calm and they did not sanction him, and that information is now public, do you think they can EVER sanction someone for “intent” with PP (or similar calming supplements)?

I bet not. Anyone they tried it on would sue before the ink was dry on the judgement.

Which is why, I would speculate, they included that paragraph on calming supplements in the recent email. They might as well openly acknowledge why and how people use them. They won’t/can’t go after them just for using them anyway, no matter what the intent is.

All they can do is set them down if one of the ingredients test. And that email made it clear that 1) they are developing tests and/or making decisions on components that are known to exist in some supplements on a continuous basis, and 2) you can’t trust product labels to keep you within the rules.

This is all, by the way, 100% consistent with the conversation I had with the D&M hotline a while ago. I suspect I am the least surprised person on this thread with how things are playing out.

[But I would be beyond delighted if, in six months or so, a new sanction shows up against the trainer for admitting under oath that he gave PP with the intent to calm. I would throw a party in celebration and eat all the crow you could hand me. I just don’t think it will ever happen.]

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=supernatural;8307902]
There are a lot of us who do NOT drug our horses. You might find that hard to believe but it is very true. I should add…we win a LOT too. I don’t know about other areas but there are many great horsepeople in Virginia. Some of us have been around a long time …we used to ride TB’s . Good lord…most warmbloods don’t want to go forward. I cant imagine drugging one and having to work that hard. While there are definitely the drugging cheaters out there, truly there Are many good horse people that are not resorting to these methods. …

Regardless, its a real problem…whether 9 tubes of pppalllooza or Carolina Gold, 30 pills of Melatonin, roofies or whatever. It’s all out there and the horses don’t need it.[/QUOTE]

Agree – there are those that don’t… but my sense is the way as Molly describes in the blog linked above, the calming culture is endemic.

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=ybiaw;8307943]
Great new Op-Ed by Molly on the main COTH site.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/sunshine-false-fairytales-calming[/QUOTE]

Only missing our iconic hashtag #9Tubeapalooza

[IPEsq]

Ok I will admit I gave my horse the PP with the B vitamins at his first “show”…which is in quotes because we jumped in with both feet to have his first excursion to our biggest AA show circuit for 2 weeks, and horse was taking off like a bucking bronco at first. But we were NOT competing for many reasons, mostly baby not being ready. I also was using it somewhat as a dietary aid since I had a mag supp for muscle support that he wouldn’t eat. I managed to get about 1/3 of a tube down before he started making the gaggy faces and drooling. I was warned that it coats the soft palate and they don’t like it although he didn’t seem to mind the flavor. Horse was still a bucking bronco but I think had better focus–considering his normal is severe ADHD. The point of this story is I couldn’t even give a whole tube because I felt bad and didn’t even have the moral dilemma about giving it in competition since we weren’t putting a back number on. I can’t imagine 9 at a time. Much less on a regular basis. That would be like force feeding me 9 bottles of Pepto. :dead:

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=supernatural;8307902]
These druggers are lazy, don’t want to do the work a good program requires and have gotten themselves in a “drugging habit”.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, I really don’t think that any of these top barns that are using these banned substances are doing it because they’re lazy, don’t want to put in the work, and don’t know how to ride. They’re doing it because despite all the hard work they are all putting into these horses, the drugs give them the extra edge they need to beat out everyone else who is also doing the same amount of hard work. Not one of them is picking up a bound-for-slaughter horse from New Holland, drugging it, and thinking they can turn it into the next Rox Dene. They’re all gambling on every horse they import from Europe to be the next big national winner, and they are spending a substantial chunk of money on so many of them that they are desperate for at least ONE of them to work out in their favor so they can turn a huge profit. Because for every one of those gems they find, they probably end up importing far more that turn out to be such duds that we here on the internet never even see them.

That doesn’t excuse the drug use at all, but it shows that the whole show industry has become just that - an industry, where making money has become more important than animal welfare. I’m not sure whose fault that is, but everyone who participates in that way of thinking should be completely ashamed of himself or herself. And the whole problem is that none of the people who fall into that category recognize that in themselves.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8307980]
They’re doing it because despite all the hard work they are all putting into these horses, the drugs give them the extra edge they need to beat out everyone else who is also doing the same amount of hard work. [/QUOTE]

The other piece that is implied in this, but not stated is the judging standards. the bar has moved to the end of the spectrum (possibly artificially moved by the use of calmers) and the standards don’t allow a horse to be a horse. When fewer and fewer hunters are born that can be that outlier, the motivation to cheat and make the outlier is higher.

[supernatural]

Well…in response to your response I have to say…I’m one of the people with my butt out of bed at 4:30 every day at the horse show to make sure we have a good hack in the ring. I know who is there schooling and who is not. I’ve done Junior National Finals 2 years in a row and went at least a week early doing the Brandywine Show, ( fabulous by the way ) so that horses would at least have a chance of going well. I do my homework. I watched the people being set down come in late Sunday before Jr Nationals…I think everyone should go back and read Brigid Colvins testimony about Inclusive and Jr. National Finals. She eludes to the fact that Carolina Gold didnt work on him…he had rails…like at JR. National Finals…she is talking about 2014…took him out of competition.
These are NOT my words but hers…yes I was there…saw it happen. When u show up last minute, yes, you can because you drug.; we can’t because we don’t drug and in order to be competitive the horses need to acclimate…like a rider needs to as well.

I am not a person who has a grudge to bear. I was thrilled at Upperville that my young student would get to see TC ride. She got an eyefull alright and so did I.

I stand by my assessment; people on the up and up come at least the day before and get their ASS out of bed early go get their horse inthe ring. I’m not seeing alot of the people getting pinged when Im out there at 5:00 a.m so excuse me …yes the lazy factor kicks in. They have the 9 tubes of pp to fall back on and whatever drug is the drug dujour of the moment.

It is what it is…

[busylady]

I am really impressed with Molly Sorge and the COTH. That editorial is really wonderful and I hope it gets shared thousands of times. It is probably just wishful thinking, but I’d like to think that editorial coupled with the power of social media will result in real change (on the part of USEF and the Colvins). Fingers crossed and even if it doesn’t, Molly and the COTH did their part.

[Peggy]

supernatural - A trainer friend had a client move to another trainer and there was a meeting between the two trainers. One of the client’s horses was a bit green and spooky to the jumps. New trainer (NT) asked, “What’s his prep?” Old trainer (OT) said, “I get up early and ride him before the show starts. If the rings are available for schooling (and I make darn sure I get up early enough), I ride him in every ring he’s going to show in that day.” NT said, “No. What’s his prep?” OT repeated herself. Ad nauseum.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8308002]
The other piece that is implied in this, but not stated is the judging standards. the bar has moved to the end of the spectrum (possibly artificially moved by the use of calmers) and the standards don’t allow a horse to be a horse. When fewer and fewer hunters are born that can be that outlier, the motivation to cheat and make the outlier is higher.[/QUOTE]

That’s a very good point. But with so many horses that ARE able to reach these new standards (I have no idea if any of them are truly able to do that naturally compared to how many do that through the help of drugs), how does a judge make the call? If a judge is faced with two equal trips, where one played a tiny bit on the corners and the other did not, is she supposed to assume the one that did not play was drugged, and therefore place that one below the one that did play a little? Should she ignore it if the one who didn’t play jumped a little better since that one might have been drugged? Honestly, the hunter division has become so precise and there is so little difference most of the time between the top horses in most classes that I’m not sure how the judges do it at all.

I completely get your point and agree with you, but judging standards for the hunters are always going to be subjective no matter how the rules are written. It certainly can’t hurt to encourage judges to be a little more open minded than they maybe have been, but the bottom line is they can only judge what is put before them. The biggest problem is what’s going on in the barn before the horses ever enter the ring, not what is going on before the judges eyes.

[OverandOnward]

Here is something I never expect to hear from any of the principals in this case: an apology. Even just one little ole partial apology.

“We are sorry that our horse was subjected to a substance intended to alter his performance in competition.”

“We are sorry that rules were broken by someone on our team - regardless of who broke them.”

“We are sorry we misled you, public followers and admirers, when we gave interviews and encouraged a public image of clean horsemanship and sportsmanship.”

As a “we” = the team … or as an “I” from Tori, the owner, the trainer, her mother … from anyone who was part of this team.

Before or after all the court activity is concluded.

Personally I doubt they are sorry at all. No tone of regret came through in that transcript.

[supernatural]

OMG. Peggy…u got it. You know what I’M talking about…me and my dot dot.

I will not give up on the Hunter /jumper world. I love a wonderful horse.

Judges can make a difference. I have started to make a list of judges that are so political…not spending my clients money at shows where you have judges doing crazy things. It is not that hard to do…many super judges out there but a few big time bad apples . Why go somewhere when you already know they will Not pin you. Hey…we have been pinned behind horses going off course before after winning both classes on day one. Yep…trust me I know how the system works.

Yet…come back back for something more because I know there are more really good people then bad. It will only change if people stand up!!!

[supernatural]

I should say 2years in a row at Jr National Finals…NEVER SAW A DRUG TESTER.

[hillary_again]

Good job Molly Sorge! I too am proud to be a Chronicle subscriber.

[inca]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8307883]

FWIW: loved Molly Sorge’s blog on this situation. http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/sunshine-false-fairytales-calming [/QUOTE]

Kudos to Molly and The Chronicle. They even admitted that they have been perpetuating the fairy tale story line.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=inca;8308089]
Kudos to Molly and The Chronicle. They even admitted that they have been perpetuating the fairy tale story line.[/QUOTE]

What a great thing to read - I’ve never read such an unbiased piece published by the Chronicle, and I’ve subscribed on and off since I was a kid riding in the short stirrup division.

[poltroon]

@Halt Near X;8307954

Yeah, but since he admitted under oath that he gave PP with the intent to calm and they did not sanction him, and that information is now public, do you think they can EVER sanction someone for “intent” with PP (or similar calming supplements)?

They did set him down though. And the lactanase and perfect prep tubes are explicitly mentioned in the findings and decision. They didn’t need to specifically sanction him for those and that would have potentially opened a new line of appeal, since they didn’t have a positive test for those.

The committee is not specific about the components that cause them to choose the size of the fine or the length of the suspension.

[poltroon]

Those of you who say you cannot train your horses to jog disappoint me. If you can teach your horse to trot out for the under saddle and you can create enough energy to jump around a course of fences with him, you can teach him to jog freely forward in hand. If you want to. If you are enough of a horseman to have your horse respect you on the ground.

I know these horses know how to lunge.

I’m not even asking you to do it without a bridle.

[RugBug]

[
Yn1063w: I am less and less convinced that a majority of the hunters are doing it without “prep.” some absolutely are, but I think they are the exception. I’m losing out to my cynicism.

I don’t expect sub par rounds to be rewarded, but the standards for a good round need to be broadened. Get back to the roots of the sport. Who decided that the robot was the ideal? Let’s move away from that…and that starts with redefining the ideal.

[QUOTE=poltroon;8308140]
Those of you who say you cannot train your horses to jog disappoint me. If you can teach your horse to trot out for the under saddle and you can create enough energy to jump around a course of fences with him, you can teach him to jog freely forward in hand. If you want to. If you are enough of a horseman to have your horse respect you on the ground.

I know these horses know how to lunge.

I’m not even asking you to do it without a bridle. :D[/QUOTE]. Who said they couldn’t train their horses to jog? Hold on to your disappointment. I said I have one that doesn’t jog out. I also said I haven’t worked with him in a while. I’m decently versed on how to get a light feel and have my horse move off that feel. When he’s working on that feel, I don’t even have to close my fingers around the lead rope. But if he’s not tuned up, he won’t jog out energetica or at all.