Colvin Civil Suit

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=Mardi;8312783]
So what are trainers willing to do about it ? Will they contact USHJA/USEF and voice their opinion? I understand they are busy running their business, but their business is the sport, and the sport is their business.

Surely they have time for one or two phone calls, or an email. If it means that much to them, they’ll do it.[/QUOTE]

I can’t speak for all trainers but to be honest I doubt mine will. I will ask him tomorrow though. I suspect the trainers that think this is abusive and disgusting have been around a long time and don’t think they can change it and they probably even think the people they’d be reporting it to are corrupt or without power. They just choose not to play that way. They get to the horse shows early and ride horses that need to be a little quieter and those are the trainers who work like dogs at horse shows to ride a lot of horses and try to make time for all their clients. Do they really want to get into the politics of horse showing? Disappointing to this group - probably not. They just try to do the right things themselves and show in front of judges and with course designers who are fair and generally stay away from the people who are unethical. Surely others of you have discussed this with your trainers?? What do they say??

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Hachoo;8313634]
I guess GM didn’t get the memo. I’m attending one of his clinics and over the past 2 days he’s held her up as the gold standard, embodying the holy trinity of the sport; she’s an intuitive rider, she’s a horsewoman, and a horse trainer. There were several eye glances around in the auditors’ area the first few times GM encouraged the riders to emulate her. I’m thinking he’s spent enough intensive time with her over the years watching her and training her at the Horsemastership Training classes, etc. that he knows what’s real about her. Just a guess.[/QUOTE]

Don’t know that I agree with this line of thinking. GM has seen her in clinics including the horsemanship one, he has seen her ride, and he has seen her interact with the horse. In that context, all may be good. He hasn’t lived in her barn, had daily interaction with her team, supervised or participated in the daily on-going care of her horses. There is a great need not to generalize about comments

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8312261]
Above two quotes … Brigid Colvin’s transcript has put the asterisk on every one of her daughter’s wins - in the minds of the public. That’s the asterisk that will never go away.

Tori has been admired and looked up to, and now that won’t be the case any more, even if everyone otherwise behaves as if the whole thing is ‘forgotten’. No one is going to be saying to a student 'go look at some videos of Tori winning the ___ Class and see how she rides it '.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure why some people here seem to think that drugging a horse with some kind of calming agent means that a drunk monkey could ride it around a derby finals course and win. To imply that we’ve all been fooled into thinking Tori is a great rider, when in fact she clearly can’t ride her way out of a paper bag because one of the dozens upon dozens of horses that she’s been riding for years and years tested positive, is completely ridiculous. Maybe all of you are way better riders than I am, but I know without a doubt that I couldn’t win a class in a national open division at any AA show in the country on ANY horse, no matter what drugs you give the thing.

I think it’s great to speak out about the issue (which has been brought to the forefront thanks to the Inclusive situation), and it’s important to keep it in the forefront and brainstorm in an effort to come up with realistic and effective changes that could be made (and obviously need to be made), but going completely overboard and getting hysterically ridiculous never helps any cause.

[SnicklefritzG]

I think the point made several times by others is this: If the best riders on the best horses feel like they must dope in order to win, then what chance is there for everyone else?

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8313677]
I’m not sure why some people here seem to think that drugging a horse with some kind of calming agent means that a drunk monkey could ride it around a derby finals course and win. To imply that we’ve all been fooled into thinking Tori is a great rider, when in fact she clearly can’t ride her way out of a paper bag because one of the dozens upon dozens of horses that she’s been riding for years and years tested positive, is completely ridiculous. Maybe all of you are way better riders than I am, but I know without a doubt that I couldn’t win a class in a national open division at any AA show in the country on ANY horse, no matter what drugs you give the thing.

I think it’s great to speak out about the issue (which has been brought to the forefront thanks to the Inclusive situation), and it’s important to keep it in the forefront and brainstorm in an effort to come up with realistic and effective changes that could be made (and obviously need to be made), but going completely overboard and getting hysterically ridiculous never helps any cause.[/QUOTE]

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8313679]
I think the point made several times by others is this: If the best riders on the best horses feel like they must dope in order to win, then what chance is there for everyone else?[/QUOTE]

Yes, that point has been made here, but that is not the point of the post I quoted. That post implied that no one should admire Tori’s riding anymore, and many others have expressed the same opinion. I just feel that that is going way overboard, and takes the focus away from the real issue that needs to be addressed.

[Anne_FS]

You can think it’s way overboard, and I can think that it’s about time riders - even 17yo ones who are touted as horsemen - stop competing on ANY drugged animal and start knowing what the hell is being done to the animals they’re getting famous on.

Although I am not happy with so much of what USPC has evolved/degenerated into, there’s a reason a lot of “Hunter” trainers don’t care for Pony Clubbers in their barn. They know too much, ask too many questions, and don’t want secret things done to their horses before they get on them.

[SnicklefritzG]

I think the beef that many people have is that people had been praising Tori for the wonderful connection she had with the horses she rode. That being one of the major factors that has been cited as to why she does so well.

Now it calls a lot of that into question.

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8313680]
Yes, that point has been made here, but that is not the point of the post I quoted. That post implied that no one should admire Tori’s riding anymore, and many others have expressed the same opinion. I just feel that that is going way overboard, and takes the focus away from the real issue that needs to be addressed.[/QUOTE]

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;8313797]
You can think it’s way overboard, and I can think that it’s about time riders - even 17yo ones who are touted as horsemen - stop competing on ANY drugged animal and start knowing what the hell is being done to the animals they’re getting famous on.[/QUOTE]

Please re read my post. That is not the part that I think is way overboard.

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8313798]I think the beef that many people have is that people had been praising Tori for the wonderful connection she had with the horses she rode. That being one of the major factors that has been cited as to why she does so well.

Now it calls a lot of that into question.[/QUOTE]

I guess if some want to believe that giving a horse calming substances makes it able to rate itself, find its own distances, and make its rider look like one of the best in the country, that is their prerogative. I stand by my opinion that it’s just not that simple.

[Flash44]

@yaya;8313339

That transcript was a muddy mess. Does no one ever proofread or bother to correct transcripts? Has no one taught the hearing stenographer horse terms or even basic english? Or are the witnesses and people running these hearings really that illiterate? A lot of their statements made no sense.

Yes, the unfortunate mix up of “ball” and “bawl.”

[Hachoo]

[QUOTE=juststartingout;8313675]
Don’t know that I agree with this line of thinking. GM has seen her in clinics including the horsemanship one, he has seen her ride, and he has seen her interact with the horse. In that context, all may be good. He hasn’t lived in her barn, had daily interaction with her team, supervised or participated in the daily on-going care of her horses. There is a great need not to generalize about comments[/QUOTE]

Bottom line is that however he arrived at his conclusion GM is still squarely in her corner…unless he has no idea about what’s transpired. Let’s take a poll on that.

Now, the masochist in me wanted to jump up in the middle of a session and ask for his opinion on the suit and what that means for Tori. However, the life loving part of me did not want to be publicly excoriated, tarred, pine shaving-ed and hung on a vertical to be a “question” on the high session’s jump course. :winkgrin:

[2bayboys]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8313811]

I guess if some want to believe that giving a horse calming substances makes it able to rate itself, find its own distances, and make its rider look like one of the best in the country, that is their prerogative. I stand by my opinion that it’s just not that simple.[/QUOTE]

It might not make him rate himself, but it quite probably makes him able to be rated; it doesn’t make him find his own distances, but it likely keeps him from galloping past the distances and making a bid. Nobody is saying that Tori can’t ride, but her feats may not be quite so spectacular as they would be if her rides were “unenhanced”.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8313811]
Please re read my post. That is not the part that I think is way overboard.

I guess if some want to believe that giving a horse calming substances makes it able to rate itself, find its own distances, and make its rider look like one of the best in the country, that is their prerogative. I stand by my opinion that it’s just not that simple.[/QUOTE]

I agree that you still have to ride the horse. However, it’s much easier to ride a horse that is cooperating than one that is a little spooky or reactive.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8313827]
I agree that you still have to ride the horse. However, it’s much easier to ride a horse that is cooperating than one that is a little spooky or reactive.[/QUOTE]

Yes, particularly if a small spook or look drops you from 1st to out of the ribbons

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8313827]
I agree that you still have to ride the horse. However, it’s much easier to ride a horse that is cooperating than one that is a little spooky or reactive.[/QUOTE]

Yes, particularly if a small spook or look drops you from 1st to out of the ribbons

[Horseshowaddict]

[QUOTE=juststartingout;8313675]
Don’t know that I agree with this line of thinking. GM has seen her in clinics including the horsemanship one, he has seen her ride, and he has seen her interact with the horse. In that context, all may be good. He hasn’t lived in her barn, had daily interaction with her team, supervised or participated in the daily on-going care of her horses. There is a great need not to generalize about comments[/QUOTE]

GM taught Tori privately during WEF, mostly on the Jumpers, but he has seen the barn, maybe didn’t go in a snoop around, which honestly is a little out of line. However, he did see her ride and see her horses in their “home” enviornment.

[gerut]

[QUOTE=Hachoo;8313814]
Bottom line is that however he arrived at his conclusion GM is still squarely in her corner…unless he has no idea about what’s transpired. Let’s take a poll on that.

Now, the masochist in me wanted to jump up in the middle of a session and ask for his opinion on the suit and what that means for Tori. However, the life loving part of me did not want to be publicly excoriated, tarred, pine shaving-ed and hung on a vertical to be a “question” on the high session’s jump course. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

Hachoo, I was only there on day 1. I was hoping he might call out the the rider in the 3’ group whose horse was clearly on ace but he didn’t. I thought it would be a great opportunity to address the issue if it was on his agenda. Too bad that rider felt she had to drug her horse for a clinic because she missed a great opportunity. Hopefully she didn’t ace him yesterday and today.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8313811]
I stand by my opinion that it’s just not that simple.[/QUOTE]

What is simple is that any one can do anything to any horse at the top levels of competition and all a rider, owner, and trainer has to say is “I didn’t know” and there are no consequences for the rider, owner, and trainer. Heck, even if they did know and get caught it’s no big deal. All concerned are still praised to the skies by the biggest names in the sport. What’s wrong with this picture? It’s ridiculous and pathetic and has got to stop. The only ones suffering consequences are the horses.

Correction, no adverse consequences. Only positive consequences for the rider, owner, and trainer who do experience consequences: they win! They get more money, more fame, more horses.

The only one with the adverse consequences is the horse who is continually pumped full of crap. If anyone can read that transcript and not be horrified at the life that animal leads they should hang their heads in shame. ENOUGH of the oh, it’s okay to repeatedly give 9 TUBES of shit in a performance horse every show day, the rider is still FAB. What rot.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;8313901]
What is simple is that any one can do anything to any horse at the top levels of competition and all a rider, owner, and trainer has to say is “I didn’t know” and there are no consequences for the rider, owner, and trainer. Heck, even if they did know and get caught it’s no big deal. All concerned are still praised to the skies by the biggest names in the sport. What’s wrong with this picture? It’s ridiculous and pathetic and has got to stop. The only ones suffering consequences are the horses.

Correction, no adverse consequences. Only positive consequences for the rider, owner, and trainer who do experience consequences: they win! They get more money, more fame, more horses.

The only one with the adverse consequences is the horse who is continually pumped full of crap. If anyone can read that transcript and not be horrified at the life that animal leads they should hang their heads in shame. ENOUGH of the oh, it’s okay to repeatedly give 9 TUBES of shit in a performance horse every show day, the rider is still FAB. What rot.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure why you keep quoting me, and then responding to something that is completely unrelated to anything I’ve posted. No one has said, or even implied, that drugging horses is okay.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Hachoo;8313814]
Bottom line is that however he arrived at his conclusion GM is still squarely in her corner…unless he has no idea about what’s transpired. Let’s take a poll on that.
… :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

At the risk of inciting more comments, so what? Tori is a lovely rider. GM does not manage her horses and has no authority to do so.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Horseshowaddict;8313890]
GM taught Tori privately during WEF, mostly on the Jumpers, but he has seen the barn, maybe didn’t go in a snoop around, which honestly is a little out of line. However, he did see her ride and see her horses in their “home” enviornment.[/QUOTE]

There is nothing inconsistent between my post and your response. Again GM is not involved in the daily care of or prep of her horses.