Colvin Civil Suit

[KellyS]

I’ve been wanting to say this and, now, after 39 pages, here it goes.

Tori absolutely knew what was going on…it’s a disservice to her intelligence to say that she didn’t/doesn’t.

I started showing on the AQHA circuit at 15 years old, coming from 4-H and completely naive about drugging or any of the many awful practices used to “calm” horses. However, by the time I aged our of the Youth program at 18, I knew exactly what certain trainers did to obtain the winning rides on their horses and for their clients’ horses.

Remember, back then (late 90s), any “drugging” was illegal in AQHA. They now use similar therapeutic substance rules as USEF, but when I was showing, if your horse was tested and even a tad of bute found, you and your horse were penalized (can’t remember exactly what the penalties were). And since you were required to own or have a lease on file to show as a Youth or Amateur, there was no getting out of it because your trainer did it or you didn’t own the horse you were riding ala TC.

To say a 17 year old could not stand up to the adults in her life doesn’t say much for that person, or the standard being set for those of her age showing at the top levels of the sport. When I discovered, at the same age, my trainer doing something unethical (but not illegal), I told my parents and we switched trainers immediately…despite having a very successful career with previous trainer.

So give teenagers a little more credit…if someone with my naivety was aware of what was happening back in the barn and then able to decide when I wasn’t comfortable with unethical practices, I had no problem speaking up and moving on.

The fact remains that the USEF already has very tolerant rules in place with regard to the use of therapeutic substances. The statements from her mother and “trainer” make it clear that they only way they felt they could win was by trying to beat the system by drugging below testable limits and overloading the horse on other substances. No matter how beautifully TC rides, is that the kind of rider we want to hold up as the epitome of a hunter rider? Or have as our next professional or potential U.S. team member?

In my opinion, I think not. It all goes back to consequences…and none of this team has any regard for them because, in the end, they’ve been sailing through and winning, and when caught, that changes nothing. Ultimately, BP and TC are still posing for win photos.

[Albertabound]

C

[QUOTE=AdultAmmieMommie;8313320]
I really hope that the USEF is reading these posts and taking note. They go on and on about needing to attract new memberships, so let’s think about how that is impacted by this drama for a minute.
I suspect that the new memberships would typically be coming from the local show crowd wanting to branch out and try an “A” show here or there or just from people moving up to the “A” circuit - correct? Well, if I were in their shoes, I would be completely turned off by these drugging scandals. Why would I want to pay more money to involve myself and my horse in that kind of world? And from a parent’s point of view, forget it! Why would I want to get my child involved in that sort of scene?? All of these infractions and lack of serious action on the USEF’s part are further ostracizing their future members.
The USEF needs to really take this seriously and think of the repercussions it has on the future of the sport. As many have already stated, more testing and harsher punishments need to be enforced. The cycling governing bodies have taken these measures and it has saved their sport. It is now time to save our sport as well![/QUOTE]

I completely agree with this. I want nothing to do with a sport that allows a horse and rider combination who had the horse fail a drug test to continue competing as if nothing happened. It makes a mockery of the sport. It brings shame to everyone involved in the sport.

I don’t doubt that Lance Armstrong is a gifted athlete, as I don’t doubt that Tori Colvin is a gifted athlete. Am I proud of their accomplishments? No. Do I think they have brought shame to their sport? Absolutely.

[Flash44]

KellyS, you make some good points. But you sound like you had a different upbringing than the rider in question.

Earlier in the thread, someone described Tori at a younger age as lacking confidence. So she wins, gets praised, and the very people that she is supposed to trust and respect (mom, trainers, etc) are implicitly saying that it’s OK to win with a little help…from a young age, this type of behavior has been modeled as acceptable.

KellyS, you were raised that this type of behavior was not acceptable, and your parents supported you when you caught your trainer doing something unethical. My son went through 4H, and even though most people on this board look down their noses at 4H, the program focuses on the development of the kids and not the results, hence the ability to think independently and be self-sufficient.

[KellyS]

Flash44 ~ Thank you! Yes, I have great parents and my 4-H background, along with my parents’ insistence that I take total responsibility for my horse if I wanted to own one, set the standard of accountability.

However, upbringing does not mean that Tori did not know what was going on. I think we need to accept that the horse management program this whole group used was well known to all of them.

As for standing up to her mom and the rest of her team, she didn’t have a problem saying something to the trainer at Young Riders when she was unhappy with his training techniques. I realize that people are saying the fallout from this event may have kept her from speaking up again. But it does make you question the types of riders being groomed as future professionals in this sport.

[m_m1]

First off, I have my opinion as to whether or not Tori knows how her horses are “prepped.” And I have an extremely strong opinion that we all have opinions. There is not one shred of evidence that she does/did or doesn’t/didn’t know. Not one.

But for those of you defending her on the basis of “how can someone her age be expected to stand up to people - trainers, mothers, etc…” - c’mon folks, really?

We have this hero-worship thing in our culture. Tori is obviously a gifted rider, and we all want to love her, or did, or do, therefore she obviously 1. didn’t know what was happening. 2. Can’t be expected to demand fair and honorable treatment for the horses she rides. She’s just a kid.

Just a kid who gets handed the best rides in the country. That doesn’t happen out of generosity. It happens because those trainers and owners get something in return. Supposing you had an amazing horse, and you wanted it to become known, so you sent it to a BNT to have it shown by a BNJR (big name junior rider - I just made that up )

When you found out it failed a drug test, would you say “Well, of course BNJR didn’t stand up for the safety and welfare of my horse” or would you be seeing red and spitting nails?

I’m also having a hard time accepting the idea of “well, if GM still likes her…”

I’m not immune to hero worship weirdness. When the Bill Cosby scandal was new, I was hoping he was innocent. Why? Why wasn’t I immediately assuming the women were telling the truth? The answer has nothing to do with Bill Cosby, and everything to do with Dr. Huxtable.

Maybe my belief that Tori has always known is more comfortable for me, because boy does it stink to be her if she never knew.

[Lord_Helpus]

Who among us old enough to remember the advent of drug testing and then years later, of finding tests of unheretofore untestable substances ? This goes back over 40 years.

I have been showing for that long (I started when I was 3 )

My memories might be off timewise, since I was a puppy back then, but I believe that testing came into being in the late 1960’s. Suddenly some of the biggest named, top winning horses were retired.

I especially remember this because my mother, who was from a horsey family herself and had been riding and showing hunters since the 1930’s, stopped showing and began to do eventing. Not because she was drugging! But because she no longer wanted to be part of such a “dirty” sport.

Fast forward 10 years to “the Debacle at Devon”. For many years there had not been a test for Reserpine. Exhibitors continued to think so. But, Ah HA! a test was developed and the results were made made pubilc, miscreants named and the poop hit the fan.

I remember one large barn that was especially hard hit. The BNT was presumed guilty of favoring that long acting tranq, but, lo and behold, nothing was ever proven against him. Instead, his traveling road manager disappered for a long time only to reappear in California as a trainer, complete with barn and clients.

That was c. 35 years ago, and here we are. Nothing has changed except the names and the drug.

The Reserpine ‘kerfluffle’ and subsequent vacations were discussed a lot on show grounds but there was no social media to spread the word far and wide and call for wholesale change. With the advent of social media knowledge of drugging has become more widespread, but the attitude among top trainers and the constant search for the next drug which does not have a test has not changed. At least until there is a test. Then there is a mini uproar and it is business as usual.

And this is not even counting the ‘killing for insurance money’ scandal. Of course, that was not “wanting to win”. That was a case of “not wanting to lose” [money]. They are 2 sides of the same coin as far as putting the horse second behind human greed.

I am jaded, having been through several cycles of this. Ace to Reserpine to Carolina Gold to ??? Intermingled with these “real” drugs are the milkshakes, magnesium, erfect Prep and other naturally occurring substances.

The hunter division’s motto is “better living through chemistry” and no amount of righteous posting is going to change the ‘will to win at any cost’ mentality.

JMO, of course.

[NeverTime]

Exactly, LH. So similar to professional cycling.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8314129]
…

The hunter division’s motto is “better living through chemistry” and no amount of righteous posting is going to change the ‘will to win at any cost’ mentality.

JMO, of course.[/QUOTE]

Its NOT just the hunter ring - as much as we might like to pretend it is… EQ horses are also “prepped” and so are some jumpers.

And … not naive, know its happened before and will likely happen again. As Lord Helpus says its hard not to be jaded. And posting alone will certainly not change. it.

Still difficult to change does not mean impossible to change. History is not the future (at least it does not have to be).
Demanding penalties that make it TRULY risky to drug (setting down the horse, rider, owner and real trainer), publicly identifying visibly and negatively those who do, promoting those who are clean are all steps in the right direction.

Winning at all costs is NOT winning – its losing for everyone.

[Neely]

I think it’s important to put things in perspective. Did Tori know, of course she did. Could she have stood up to it? Yep. But let’s remember, this is probably something she became aware of over time, and it’s all she knows. Her options are to give up the only life she knows and her whole identity to stand up to the people she’s been raised to feel completely indebted to OR do what she’s been taught “is just the way it’s done”. To ask that of a teenager, who by the way, is treated like a celebrity in part due to the behavior in question, is a lot.
The real issue is the prevalence and arrogance surrounding this kind of unethical competition and horsemanship in equestrian sports. The people at the top of the game consider those critical of their way of doing things as idiots. The experience of the horse medicated for soundness or quietness is completely unimportant to the egos of many of the top professionals, not just those involved in this particular mess. It’s a culture problem, and it needs a serious change across the board of horse showing. Another can of worms is the fact that there seem to be too many people that allow themselves and/or their children to be owned by some top pros and owners in order to get to the top of the game. The love for the horses gets lost after a certain amount of success and subsequent pressure to win and keep clients winning. Shameful to see a sport so beloved by so many in such turmoil.

[justathought]

[QUOTE=Neely;8314490]
I think it’s important to put things in perspective. Did Tori know, of course she did. Could she have stood up to it? Yep. But let’s remember, this is probably something she became aware of over time, and it’s all she knows. Her options are to give up the only life she knows and her whole identity to stand up to the people she’s been raised to feel completely indebted to OR do what she’s been taught “is just the way it’s done”. To ask that of a teenager, who by the way, is treated like a celebrity in part due to the behavior in question, is a lot.
The real issue is the prevalence and arrogance surrounding this kind of unethical competition and horsemanship in equestrian sports. The people at the top of the game consider those critical of their way of doing things as idiots. The experience of the horse medicated for soundness or quietness is completely unimportant to the egos of many of the top professionals, not just those involved in this particular mess. It’s a culture problem, and it needs a serious change across the board of horse showing. Another can of worms is the fact that there seem to be too many people that allow themselves and/or their children to be owned by some top pros and owners in order to get to the top of the game. The love for the horses gets lost after a certain amount of success and subsequent pressure to win and keep clients winning. Shameful to see a sport so beloved by so many in such turmoil.[/QUOTE]

Well said

It is a serious culture problem and it requires dramatic change. It requires statements from the organizations that govern the sport that violations of the rules and regulations under which competitions are held are not going to be tolerated - that significant and visible penalties will attach to those related to them. It takes the fortitude to tolerate the objections - often from those with power within the sport - that will be raised that its the norm, that it was unknown, that someone else did it, that it is preventing or interfering wth the business model. It will take bravery. It will take all the posters here continuing to keep up the pressure to maintain the change. It will take continued attention to refuse excuses. It will take perseverance to hold all players to a new standard.

Little worthwhile is easy.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8313859]
Yes, particularly if a small spook or look drops you from 1st to out of the ribbons[/QUOTE]

I think this is the point. TC’s exquisite riding is not debatable in my opinion; she’s just an incredible rider, and I love watching her. But the point is that if even she has to drug her amazing horses - the best in the business - to get them to meet the standard, then the standard is f’ing wrong.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=carroal;8314715]
I think this is the point. TC’s exquisite riding is not debatable in my opinion; she’s just an incredible rider, and I love watching her. But the point is that if even she has to drug her amazing horses - the best in the business - to get them to meet the standard, then the standard is f’ing wrong.[/QUOTE]

Or are there ways to meet the standard without drugging and either the PERCEPTION is that you must drug to win OR is drugging an easier shortcut.

I fully believe there are horses that can go around sober, quiet, and jump well. They’re just harder to find and take more time/work to develop. God forbid a horse learn some dressage/flatwork. Nope-- at 5 years old you’re a golden oldie in the pre-greens. No WONDER horses need drugs to go around-- they got moved up so fast, no one ever took the time to really, really, REALLY break them. Without skipping steps. Without rushing. And with some miles that “don’t matter” where mistakes can be made before stepping into the AA ring.

[Ponytoes]

Is their any country besides Canada that has this controversial hunter culture? I have to think TC was on drugged ponies before she graduated to horses - considering that transcript - my 2 cents

[Hachoo]

[QUOTE=gerut;8313900]
Hachoo, I was only there on day 1. I was hoping he might call out the the rider in the 3’ group whose horse was clearly on ace but he didn’t. I thought it would be a great opportunity to address the issue if it was on his agenda. Too bad that rider felt she had to drug her horse for a clinic because she missed a great opportunity. Hopefully she didn’t ace him yesterday and today.[/QUOTE]

Oh shoot. I was hoping my novice eyes were deceiving me. It was a whole listless package that was causing him continued consternation, which he was sharing freely. It didn’t improve. She took a lot of verbal hits and there was little change. Uncomfortable.

Tying this into the thread, within my first 3 months of riding I saw ace being used on horses in prep for local schooling shows. When I made a disapproving remark I was told I didn’t understand, that it was for the horses’ safety so they didn’t hurt themselves when they are hyper in the trailer, or schooling. :no:

If I knew about calming agents being used and I’m a newbie nobody rider in no name barns I would bet hard cash that Tori knew what was happening after being in the business for a decade.

Someone had posted that she will no longer be a reference point for an example of great riding. That’s why I mentioned George Morris. His speaking highly of her riding has nothing to do with her involvement in the matters at hand. He did not speak to that. It’s not his opinion on this case and what part she played. He talks about her as a great rider. He’s just one voice. I’m sure there are others in the sport that will also separate the two issues. Her wins are in question but her reputation as a top rider is not wiped out.

She’s young. She can overcome this. I would just love it if she turned this around with the help of some adults worth looking up to . . . sponsors/benefactors with great horses for her to ride and who care nothing about being in ribbon pictures, and trainers who would train her but the centerpiece would be about having a top clean rider. How different would her world be without benefactor pressure? She could make herself the poster child of a clean hunter jumper world. Sounds like a movie script, I know. One can dream.

I told you all I was a newbie

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=Neely;8314490]
I think it’s important to put things in perspective. Did Tori know, of course she did. Could she have stood up to it? Yep. But let’s remember, this is probably something she became aware of over time, and it’s all she knows. Her options are to give up the only life she knows and her whole identity to stand up to the people she’s been raised to feel completely indebted to OR do what she’s been taught “is just the way it’s done”. To ask that of a teenager, who by the way, is treated like a celebrity in part due to the behavior in question, is a lot.[/QUOTE]

No, it’s not. I can’t believe people think this way. What kind of teenagers do you know? It’s basic cheating, besides being nasty to the animals involved, and to say that it’s hard to decline to cheat is crazy and is not an acceptable excuse. There are thousands of ethical teenagers out there, wealthy kids, poor kids, kids in between, who act ethically and obey the rules and would not do this. They don’t have “celebrity” because they chose ethically. And I’ve got news for you: for most of them it was never an agonizing decision. They do what’s fair and right because it’s fair and right. Whether or not trainer or mommy says so.

@Neely;8314490

The real issue is the prevalence and arrogance surrounding this kind of unethical competition and horsemanship in equestrian sports. The people at the top of the game consider those critical of their way of doing things as idiots. The experience of the horse medicated for soundness or quietness is completely unimportant to the egos of many of the top professionals, not just those involved in this particular mess. It’s a culture problem, and it needs a serious change across the board of horse showing.

This I absolutely agree with.

[bingbingbing]

[QUOTE=carroal;8314715]
I think this is the point. TC’s exquisite riding is not debatable in my opinion; she’s just an incredible rider, and I love watching her. But the point is that if even she has to drug her amazing horses - the best in the business - to get them to meet the standard, then the standard is f’ing wrong.[/QUOTE]
Just because a horse moves and jumps great, that does not instantly make it a suitable hunter. No, I don’t like the zombie horses going around like half dead machines. And I do think the standards need to change. But many of these horses belong in a different ring if they need the kind of prep Inclusive needs. It is sickening to me to think of what has been done to that horse at every show.

[Flash44]

The junior riders are being used and abused just as much as the horses.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8315085]
The junior riders are being used and abused just as much as the horses.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know that I’d go that far but in this case VC certainly seem to be a commodity that the adults around her feel free to trade with.

[MIKES_MCS]

So many of these Junior rider with “fabulous talent” are going to graduate to Pros who may go on to represent this country in the Olympics or have there own barns … but seriously with out the drugs what to they have to really teach… or offer … Would these rider have made it to where they are now with out coming up through the ranks on drugged ponies and horses, chances are not , they would have taken up tennis the first time they got tossed …

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8315085]
The junior riders are being used and abused just as much as the horses.[/QUOTE]

Actually … its all perspective. Many would argue that the junior riders being used and abused are the ones that ride horses who are clean and not prepped (in many cases their own and only horse) and are continually forced to compete against those who abuse the system and violate the rules.

IME its a rare teenager than can be forced to do something against their will. Have observed teens who want out deliberately lose swim meets, fall in skating and gymnastic competition and ride poorly