Colvin Civil Suit

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8314780]
Or are there ways to meet the standard without drugging and either the PERCEPTION is that you must drug to win OR is drugging an easier shortcut.

I fully believe there are horses that can go around sober, quiet, and jump well. They’re just harder to find and take more time/work to develop. God forbid a horse learn some dressage/flatwork. Nope-- at 5 years old you’re a golden oldie in the pre-greens. No WONDER horses need drugs to go around-- they got moved up so fast, no one ever took the time to really, really, REALLY break them. Without skipping steps. Without rushing. And with some miles that “don’t matter” where mistakes can be made before stepping into the AA ring.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think there so many of these naturally and/or well-trained sober, quiet, and good jumping horses out there as we’d like to believe. Sure, in the A/A ring I bet there are more but as the you get into the high performance classes, I think the numbers dwindle. If 10 out of 50 horses can compete to this standard, is that enough? All the ribbons will get handed out, but what happens to the 40 that can’t compete to these standards? What are their connections going to do to get them to behave like those 10 that have it all? Maybe that doesn’t matter and we should just say too bad to those 40 horses…but truth is, that’s where the problem lies. Not enough horses can meet the standard through nature and training so people find ways to artificially meet it. Our courses are so cookie cutter that they reward one type of horse and don’t give others a chance to shine.

We are in typical American mentality: if a little of something is a good thing (quiet, metronome horses) than a lot is even better rather than celebrating the diversity that can do the job, just in a different way. It’s like looking at art and saying only Picasso is “art” and Monet, Degas, Pollock, Dali, even Banksy are not art. Then everyone tries to become Picasso by whatever means they can…and it get ugly.

[BeeHoney]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8314780]
Or are there ways to meet the standard without drugging and either the PERCEPTION is that you must drug to win OR is drugging an easier shortcut.

I fully believe there are horses that can go around sober, quiet, and jump well. They’re just harder to find and take more time/work to develop. God forbid a horse learn some dressage/flatwork. Nope-- at 5 years old you’re a golden oldie in the pre-greens. No WONDER horses need drugs to go around-- they got moved up so fast, no one ever took the time to really, really, REALLY break them. Without skipping steps. Without rushing. And with some miles that “don’t matter” where mistakes can be made before stepping into the AA ring.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it’s true that there are horses that can go around a course of jumps very quietly without any prep, but the fact that they ARE so much harder to find is a problem that makes it really worthwhile for trainers to find the solution for that in medication.

Frankly, I think the judging HAS to change. The prevalence of drugged horses (horses sedated/calmed by some method, legal or illegal) has become so high that the ultimate standard has shifted to make a “drugged look” the ideal. Yes, some horses can achieve this “drugged look” without drugs, but is that what our sport should be about? Making lively, intelligent, athletic animals look like they are robots?

As an adult amateur, all I want is that when I go to a show it is a real competition, not some kind of a farce where more than half of the horses have been “prepped” with extensive untestable substances/sub-testable amounts of illegal substances or legal medications used for calming purposes, and judging that isn’t based on a weird ideal that came from watching too many overly sedated horses jumping.

There’s a point where normal people with extremely nice but un-medicated horses are going to start stepping away as they realize that to be competitive there is a reasonable chance they are going to “need” to medicate their horse to achieve the best “hunter look” and be competitive against all the other medicated horses.

[SnicklefritzG]

I agree with the statement that the judging needs to change. Even non-horse people that I’ve spoken with about this have made similar statements.

Courses also need to change. When it is the same outside line, diagonal, yada yada with the same number of jumps, what is there to separate the top horses from each other? I wonder if the judging standards have changed in part because there isn’t much to separate the top horses on other than a bit of playing in the corner, ears back while jumping or other thing.

What about more varied jumps, some unrelated distances, anything to shake things up a bit. It doesn’t have to turn into a jumper or Eq course in order to make things a bit more interesting. We can still judge the ride based on the horse’s form and movement.

[phoenixrises]

[QUOTE=carroal;8314715]
I think this is the point. TC’s exquisite riding is not debatable in my opinion; she’s just an incredible rider, and I love watching her. But the point is that if even she has to drug her amazing horses - the best in the business - to get them to meet the standard, then the standard is f’ing wrong.[/QUOTE]

Maybe the horse has to be drugged to win consistently but would be quiet enough to win, just not as often? I don’t play in this world, but does a horse of this caliber really not going like a top hunter that much, or is the drugging just keeping him winning every single time (I know that’s an overstatement). So maybe it isn’t the judges requirements, just the expectation that the horse will win every single time?

[HorseLuvr]

The Hunter courses really do need to change. I love the hunters but I am currently wanting to sell mine and get into the jumpers. The reason…I am just plain bored to tears doing the same old Hunter courses again and again. My favorite class is the handy in my division. I do compete in Hunter derbys as much as possible but sometimes would rather not gamble a $500 entry fee to an Int Hunter Derby and only select shows offer these classes. I feel like my horse is even bored with the same old outside, diagonal, outside, diagonal courses. It needs to change and let some life and fun back into these hunters!

[Flash44]

@juststartingout;8315297

Actually … its all perspective. Many would argue that the junior riders being used and abused are the ones that ride horses who are clean and not prepped (in many cases their own and only horse) and are continually forced to compete against those who abuse the system and violate the rules.

Seriously??? You consider honesty, fairness, good sportsmanship and accountability abusive??? I don’t think that is what you really mean. It’s not fair that the cheaters have an advantage, but that doesn’t mean the honest folk are being abused. Vote with your feet (and wallet).

I don’t think that the junior riders are being forced to do anything against their will. However, it seems that some of them are being taken advantage of by those in positions of influence, such as parents, trainers, owners, etc., who are cheating instead of setting an example of honesty and sportsmanship.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8315403]
Seriously??? You consider honesty, fairness, good sportsmanship and accountability abusive??? I don’t think that is what you really mean. It’s not fair that the cheaters have an advantage, but that doesn’t mean the honest folk are being abused. Vote with your feet (and wallet).

I don’t think that the junior riders are being forced to do anything against their will. However, it seems that some of them are being taken advantage of by those in positions of influence, such as parents, trainers, owners, etc., who are cheating instead of setting an example of honesty and sportsmanship.[/QUOTE]

Flash44 - you misinterpreted my comment – your original post stated that “junior riders are being used and abused” I disagree with that. If they are participated knowingly or with willful ignorance in cheating they are not being abused.

I argue that is it abusive to honest juniors riding within the rules to excuse the poor behavior of other teenagers who are cheating and that it is abusive by doing so to place them in a situation where they are forced to compete in an event where others are cheating without significant consequences.

Sure – they can “vote” with their feet and wallet - but if that is the only choice we offer we are punishing the honest ones rather than celebrating them. I would call that abusive.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8315403]
Seriously??? You consider honesty, fairness, good sportsmanship and accountability abusive??? I don’t think that is what you really mean. It’s not fair that the cheaters have an advantage, but that doesn’t mean the honest folk are being abused. Vote with your feet (and wallet).

I don’t think that the junior riders are being forced to do anything against their will. However, it seems that some of them are being taken advantage of by those in positions of influence, such as parents, trainers, owners, etc., who are cheating instead of setting an example of honesty and sportsmanship.[/QUOTE]

Flash44 - you misinterpreted my comment – your original post stated that “junior riders are being used and abused” I disagree with that. If they are participated knowingly or with willful ignorance in cheating they are not being abused.

I argue that is it abusive to honest juniors riding within the rules to excuse the poor behavior of other teenagers who are cheating and that it is abusive by doing so to place them in a situation where they are forced to compete in an event where others are cheating without significant consequences.

Sure – they can “vote” with their feet and wallet - but if that is the only choice we offer we are punishing the honest ones rather than celebrating them. I would call that abusive.

[vxf111]

Where are these mythical horses with talent and quietness? They’re probably the same ones we have now. With more training/miles and lower expectations. There’s no magic here. Your horse gets strong and pulls to the fences. You can…

(a) dope him until he’s too dazed to pull; or

(b) change the management if that’s the problem. Show less, turnout more; or

© don’t show, work on the training, then go to some low stakes shows and halt in the ring if that’s what it takes to reinforce things, don’t return to AA showing until the problem is FIXED (rather than covered up) and accept that some days the blue won’t be hanging from your banner because your horse can be inconsistent even with training (as they all can).

It’s really not rocket science. The only way horses become more well-trained is with training.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8315169]
I don’t know that I’d go that far but in this case VC certainly seem to be a commodity that the adults around her feel free to trade with.[/QUOTE]

Ain’t that the truth.

The epic tale of VC “daring” to eat a piece of bacon in front of “Dr.” Betsee gives me some hope that the kid might eventually get out on her own and live her own life and that her soul hasn’t been completely crushed. I hold the kid culpable for sure; you have to. But that transcript! Of course it’s just a tiny window into one day in a completely twisted world.

“Pasting” or “tubing” the horse - what - eight times in addition to the GABA! How does he even stand up let alone jump?

That transcript made it very clear that the kid is a child laborer being exploited by a very rich woman. That is some kind of ministry Dr. Betsee. I think she needs to put her fur coat on a diet, but that’s just me.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8315800]
Where are these mythical horses with talent and quietness? They’re probably the same ones we have now. With more training/miles and lower expectations. There’s no magic here. Your horse gets strong and pulls to the fences. You can…

(a) dope him until he’s too dazed to pull; or

(b) change the management if that’s the problem. Show less, turnout more; or

© don’t show, work on the training, then go to some low stakes shows and halt in the ring if that’s what it takes to reinforce things, don’t return to AA showing until the problem is FIXED (rather than covered up) and accept that some days the blue won’t be hanging from your banner because your horse can be inconsistent even with training (as they all can).

It’s really not rocket science. The only way horses become more well-trained is with training.[/QUOTE]

Well b&c are not options for these people. Especially if you are living on the circuit and want to go to indoors - the holy grail. You have to show constantly even in the hunters to get enough points. And then the eq is constant showing because it’s point based. When juniors and their parents are into this lifestyle they don’t even go to school because they are not home enough. Not showing is just not option.

[Denzel]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8315800]
Where are these mythical horses with talent and quietness? They’re probably the same ones we have now. With more training/miles and lower expectations. There’s no magic here. Your horse gets strong and pulls to the fences. You can…

(a) dope him until he’s too dazed to pull; or

(b) change the management if that’s the problem. Show less, turnout more; or

© don’t show, work on the training, then go to some low stakes shows and halt in the ring if that’s what it takes to reinforce things, don’t return to AA showing until the problem is FIXED (rather than covered up) and accept that some days the blue won’t be hanging from your banner because your horse can be inconsistent even with training (as they all can).

It’s really not rocket science. The only way horses become more well-trained is with training.[/QUOTE]

I think another point to add is that these horses that can win without “prep” won’t win EVERY SINGLE TIME. That is the nature of the beast…even if you have the nicest, quietest horse on the face of the planet, sh*t happens! Yes, maybe a minor spook will drop you out of the ribbons in that single class, but that doesn’t mean that you need to start doping the crap out of your horse so that it NEVER SPOOKS AGAIN. The same horse SHOULDN’T be winning every class…that’s the point of competition. Some days even if you have all of the ingredients, you just won’t be the best.

I think that is another factor perpetuating the drugging culture, they are just trying to get rid of every single “what if” by making the horse as non-reactionary as possible.

[SnicklefritzG]

A lot of those people don’t really want a horse, they want a robot.

[QUOTE=Denzel;8316010]
I think another point to add is that these horses that can win without “prep” won’t win EVERY SINGLE TIME. That is the nature of the beast…even if you have the nicest, quietest horse on the face of the planet, sh*t happens! Yes, maybe a minor spook will drop you out of the ribbons in that single class, but that doesn’t mean that you need to start doping the crap out of your horse so that it NEVER SPOOKS AGAIN. The same horse SHOULDN’T be winning every class…that’s the point of competition. Some days even if you have all of the ingredients, you just won’t be the best.

I think that is another factor perpetuating the drugging culture, they are just trying to get rid of every single “what if” by making the horse as non-reactionary as possible.[/QUOTE]

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=carroal;8315991]
Ain’t that the truth.

The epic tale of VC “daring” to eat a piece of bacon in front of “Dr.” Betsee gives me some hope that the kid might eventually get out on her own and live her own life and that her soul hasn’t been completely crushed. I hold the kid culpable for sure; you have to. But that transcript! Of course it’s just a tiny window into one day in a completely twisted world.

“Pasting” or “tubing” the horse - what - eight times in addition to the GABA! How does he even stand up let alone jump?

That transcript made it very clear that the kid is a child laborer being exploited by a very rich woman. That is some kind of ministry Dr. Betsee. I think she needs to put her fur coat on a diet, but that’s just me.[/QUOTE]

I always thought it was kind of strange how she pours so many resources into Tori Colvin, but her own daughter lives in Europe with a nanny.

[m_m1]

Daughter doesn’t ride? Asked only semi-facetiously. Because that is fascinating.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8313811]
Please re read my post. That is not the part that I think is way overboard.

I guess if some want to believe that giving a horse calming substances makes it able to rate itself, find its own distances, and make its rider look like one of the best in the country, that is their prerogative. I stand by my opinion that it’s just not that simple.[/QUOTE]

Yours is the educated opinion. I don’t argue that you are correct, technically.

But that is not how the general public thinks. The thousands of barn kids and amateurs who don’t know Tori from a pot of tea. They are the ones who were drinking the TC kool-aid before they read the transcript, or even just heard about it third-hand. They are the ones who will never miss a chance to pipe up a comment “but her horses were drugged” while knowing nothing about the details. That is how people are.

The public persona that would have made Tori as an adult a valuable commodity for clinics, articles, even books, etc. is broken. She’ll still have a market among those who know the most about what she does, but a lot of opportunities in a broader and lucrative market have been flushed by the publication of that transcript. Is that right or fair? It doesn’t matter to the reality that it is so. Once built up, a public image is all too easy to break.

Once broken, whatever is recovered will always be a repaired item with a secret in its past that could emerge at any moment. She will spend the rest of her equestrian career giving a canned explanation of what goes public in this situation, every time a pot-stirrer drags it up in an interview or a clinic.

That’s just the way public opinion works. Ask a few politicians, pro athletes or high-flying CEO’s who damaged their reputations and had to salvage it as best they could. Some have definitely rehabilitated their public presence, but the live with the comebacks nonetheless.

Could Tori have won as much without the dope? We will never know. Obviously someone didn’t think so, or the dope wouldn’t have been given.

Were others of Tori’s rides given dope below test level? Many in the public will always assume they were. They will not believe it only happened one time. That’s the mental asterisk Tori’s junior record will carry henceforward.

And it’s possible that she represents a culture that believes drugging is wrong only if enough is given to test positive. Stay below test levels, and it’s not wrong, some people think.

Tori will outlive this, and there are things she can do to re-establish herself in the public eye. But this will always be lurking in the wings.

@Albertabound;8314047

… I don’t doubt that Lance Armstrong is a gifted athlete, as I don’t doubt that Tori Colvin is a gifted athlete. Am I proud of their accomplishments? No. Do I think they have brought shame to their sport? Absolutely.

A great many people across equestrian sport completely agree with this.

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8315356]Yes, it’s true that there are horses that can go around a course of jumps very quietly without any prep, but the fact that they ARE so much harder to find is a problem that makes it really worthwhile for trainers to find the solution for that in medication.

Frankly, I think the judging HAS to change. The prevalence of drugged horses (horses sedated/calmed by some method, legal or illegal) has become so high that the ultimate standard has shifted to make a “drugged look” the ideal. Yes, some horses can achieve this “drugged look” without drugs, but is that what our sport should be about? Making lively, intelligent, athletic animals look like they are robots?
…[/QUOTE]

So many riders would be in hunters if not for this. So many riders have left hunters because of this. It is the sport that riders new to jumping can most easily enter at the lower levels. As big as hunters are, it could be so much bigger, especially at the lower levels … and that could be good for the industry and for horse-owning, generally.

[bauhaus]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8316030]
I always thought it was kind of strange how she pours so many resources into Tori Colvin, but her own daughter lives in Europe with a nanny.[/QUOTE]

Wow. I do dressage and only know of BP from COTH threads. But between telling a teenage girl to lose weight, the fake phD and her own child shipped off to Europe alone she is starting to sound like a cartoon villain. Or maybe the evil parent of the cartoon villain who turned the ordinary innocent boy into the Joker.

[APirateLooksAtForty]

The daughter does not live in Europe. So much garbage on this thread.

[vxf111]

Rather than change the judging standards, I think we need to revisit qualification processes that cause the extreme kind of point chasing. Maybe indoors shouldn’t be about who pounded the pavement the most. Judges already can prefer brightness over dullness. The problem with judging really is that everyone has a hand in everyone else’s pockets

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=APirateLooksAtForty;8316231]
The daughter does not live in Europe. So much garbage on this thread.[/QUOTE]

Check out this photo:
http://www.equusfoundation.org/images/news/releases/111-3-parker.jpg

Most moms would be the ones with their arm around their child. In this photo, it looks like Betsee Parker is much more interested in the camera.