Colvin Civil Suit

[huntersgonewild]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8316682]
I think everyone is to blame. Riders can be lazy, but if that encourages trainers to dope horses, course designers to dumb things down, then it all contributes to a downward spiral.[/QUOTE]

But they hold the checkbooks. And there is a glut of trainers out there so if you piss off an owner/rider/checkbook holder, they just go on to the next trainer. I think it is unrealistic to expect people whose livelihood is at stake to take the moral high ground such that they end up out of the business. In fact, you will actually chase out the good trainers and promote the bad by expecting the fix to come from the trainers. So, while your point is well taken, for me, the ultimate solution has to come from the owners and riders because they are the puppet masters and are driving the culture of the horse show industry. And as long as they continue to demand horse shows that are “destination” events and mini-amusement parks, the culture will continue to shift away from working horsemanlike riders to the weekend country club participants. Just my two cents.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=huntersgonewild;8316773]
I think it is unrealistic to expect people whose livelihood is at stake to take the moral high ground such that they end up out of the business. .[/QUOTE]

No. There are doctors who will refuse to continue to write pain scripts for patients who keep coming back for unneeded meds and those who will just keep writing scripts. New awareness is now targeting those doctors who are writing unnecessary scripts. A local and prominent doctor in this area was just busted. He’ll lose his license to practice medicine and possibly face jail time.

I absolutely expect a profession to take the moral high ground in any profession. I do it every day or I could be making a heck of a lot more money.

We can’t lower our expectations of morality.

[huntersgonewild]

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8316785]
No. There are doctors who will refuse to continue to write pain scripts for patients who keep coming back for unneeded meds and those who will just keep writing scripts. New awareness is now targeting those doctors who are writing unnecessary scripts. A local and prominent doctor in this area was just busted. He’ll lose his license to practice medicine and possibly face jail time.

I absolutely expect a profession to take the moral high ground in any profession. I do it every day or I could be making a heck of a lot more money.

We can’t lower our expectations of morality.[/QUOTE]

Well, trainers aren’t really in a profession. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, securities brokers, etc. are in professions where they are licensed and regulated. So, while I agree with you about morality in general, I wouldn’t hold your breath hoping that the change is going to come from a group of people who aren’t licensed, regulated, or (for most but not all) highly educated. In fact, isn’t that the problem? That the industry has been holding its breath waiting for trainers to take the moral high ground? Some do, for sure, but not enough to keep the train from going off the tracks.

[DMK]

[QUOTE=huntersgonewild;8316811]
Well, trainers aren’t really in a profession. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, securities brokers, etc. are in professions where they are licensed and regulated. So, while I agree with you about morality in general, I wouldn’t hold your breath hoping that the change is going to come from a group of people who aren’t licensed, regulated, or (for most but not all) highly educated. In fact, isn’t that the problem? That the industry has been holding its breath waiting for trainers to take the moral high ground? Some do, for sure, but not enough to keep the train from going off the tracks.[/QUOTE]

But trainers who show FEI or USEF (or AQHA, JC racing and so on) are regulated.

If the argument that dispensing too much oxy can directly impact your medical license/ability to practice medicine/earn a living applies to doctors (and can apply some real world consequences to moral/ethical considerations), you can make a similar argument about trainers competing under an organizational umbrella.

But only if the organization regs have teeth.

[huntersgonewild]

[QUOTE=DMK;8316823]
But trainers who show FEI or USEF (or AQHA, JC racing and so on) are regulated.

If the argument that dispensing too much oxy can directly impact your medical license/ability to practice medicine/earn a living applies to doctors (and can apply some real world consequences to moral/ethical considerations), you can make a similar argument about trainers competing under an organizational umbrella.

But only if the organization regs have teeth.[/QUOTE]

They are not regulated in terms of licensing, training, education, etc. They are not a profession. They can be punished for a limited set of infractions (i.e., med violations, unsportsmanlike conduct) that are committed only at horse shows. That isn’t how real professions are regulated. And in fact, other sports do license and regulate coaches and trainers in the real sense of the word.

[BeeHoney]

[QUOTE=huntersgonewild;8316677]
But in the end, it really is a function of quieter horses are easier to ride and more consistent for the weekend warriors to show up and get on. So don’t blame the judging standards, blame the lazy owners and riders who want to show up at the ring in clean riding clothes, jump around twice, and go have a glass of wine and shop at the vendor tents. That is where I think the problem lies.[/QUOTE]

I think it this is a big part of it, because those busy amateurs who have big careers that fund a fancy horse and expensive horse shows are the ones who fund the horse show industry. They want to come to a horse show and have a few perfect (or near perfect) easy rounds on a well schooled and perfectly behaved horse that makes them look good. (For some of these riders, if a horse is anything other than robotic that’s not going to happen.) Many of these riders do not want to be challenged by a more interesting/difficult course and definitely not by an inadequately “prepared” horse.

Part of this is that in the hunters at every level there is an unrealistic cultural aversion to risking any public mistakes in front of friends, fellow competitors, and rival trainers. When did we get this way? I don’t know if I have any solutions for that aspect of the hunter world, but I do know that if the judging changed to penalize horses that are too quiet, too slow, too heavily on their forehands, or landing in a heap after every jump–and if horses with athleticism and a little spark of keenness who could still retain their manners were rewarded–the culture of over medication and outright drugging of horses would shift immediately. I also think that if an amateur or junior knew they and their horse would be suspended for a good period of time for a positive test, they would suddenly become a LOT more interested in what their trainers were administering, because a $3000 fine is inconvenient but being told that you are going to miss the show season is a disaster.

[hoopoe]

we got this way when after a childhood of everyone gets a prize/ trophy/award for doing anything.

We have created a society that has come to expect that it is all easy and we should be winners for showing up.

truth is that it is hard, it takes work and to do it really well one should have a solid grounding in both fence work and correct flat (dressage) mechanics

finding the trainer that knows that

well so it goes

[vxf111]

The solution to a problem can’t be saying “well, people won’t do it.” The idea is to craft sanctions so that the appropriate option becomes more appealing.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8316915]
The solution to a problem can’t be saying “well, people won’t do it.” The idea is to craft sanctions so that the appropriate option becomes more appealing.[/QUOTE]

That means setting down the horse and the rider for a significant amount of time.

[Synthesis]

[QUOTE=DMK;8316758]
…
Every last one of these people would spare no expense treating the horse for injury or illness.

Every last one of them would go the extra mile to ensure the future health for a horse with health issues (i.e., managing a cushings horse, a high colic risk horse and so on).

And yet it seems that when it comes to dumping 9 tubes of untested, unknown, uncontrolled substances down their throat regularly, with no regard for what the long term health implications might be, all in the off chance it might fractionally tip the balance in their favor in the ring and it doesn’t test… All bets are off.

Reprehensible.[/QUOTE]

Call me cynical, but I don’t believe that most of these people WOULD do these things. A sick and/or broken horse is a $$$ drain and a non-winning horse is a reputation draining liability, if not an embarrassment. I read Hot Blood this past weekend, inspired mostly the Colvin lawsuit, and the similarity of attitude is pretty chilling.

[BLBGP]

[QUOTE=hoopoe;8316913]
we got this way when after a childhood of everyone gets a prize/ trophy/award for doing anything.

We have created a society that has come to expect that it is all easy and we should be winners for showing up.

truth is that it is hard, it takes work and to do it really well one should have a solid grounding in both fence work and correct flat (dressage) mechanics

finding the trainer that knows that

well so it goes[/QUOTE]

No, sadly, this isn’t the cause. This is a long thread, but there are many knowledgable posts about how drugging has been going on since the ‘good old days’. It’s not something that suddenly started in 2014 with Inclusive. The drug of choice keeps changing, but the intent is the same from the 60’s (and likely earlier) to today.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=BLBGP;8316947]
No, sadly, this isn’t the cause. This is a long thread, but there are many knowledgable posts about how drugging has been going on since the ‘good old days’. It’s not something that suddenly started in 2014 with Inclusive. The drug of choice keeps changing, but the intent is the same from the 60’s (and likely earlier) to today.[/QUOTE]

then it is no different from sports like professional cycling where doping has gone on for ages. The only stuff changing are the doping products based on whatever WADA et al. can actually test for.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8316618]
It’s okay to not win every.time.out. <snip> Somewhere along the line we decided that the best horses win everything all the time. That’s an unreasonable standard.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I don’t think there is anyone that thinks they are going to win every time out. I think there are people that know they have a shot of winning each time they step into the ring, but that’s very different from what you are saying. A top rider on a top caliber horse always has a chance. that is all.

The rest of us jokers out there are just hoping it all goes according to plan and ribbons are nice but never expected.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=hoopoe;8316913]
we got this way when after a childhood of everyone gets a prize/ trophy/award for doing anything.

We have created a society that has come to expect that it is all easy and we should be winners for showing up.

truth is that it is hard, it takes work and to do it really well one should have a solid grounding in both fence work and correct flat (dressage) mechanics

finding the trainer that knows that

well so it goes[/QUOTE]

I agree about this general trend in our society, but I think the situation is even worse than you describe hoopoe. Have you seen a BTJR’s flat work lately? Certainly TC’s is impressive. What they can do on the flat and without stirrups, and over fences without stirrups is awe inspiring. The skill is there. The flat work is there. But those skills are maximized through the sofa-backed, prepped-up, massive warmbloods the kids ride. I think it isn’t so much that everyone has to have a trophy because everyone doesn’t get to win the Maclays for sure. However, for a certain element, they make sure that the horse is prepped to the point where it is as much of a certain thing as any equine can be.

Of course everyone prepares their horse to show. But for a certain element, a very high level of skill - flat, jumping - is achieved through performance enhancing drugs. That’s what makes it so frustrating. I couldn’t even AFFORD to give my horse nine tubes of anything on a regular basis if I wanted to! I’d have nothing left to pay the showbill with! Moreover who would have the straight up nerve? But the transcript shows this is absolutely routine for Inclusive. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad. And btw, I did know a thoroughbred hunter who went like a (beautiful) robot, just dead quiet and perfect pace nearly each and every time. Likely never refused a jump in his life. A very expensive horse to be sure. But not on anything at all, so they do exist but I don’t think people bother trying to find those anymore.

[kenyarider]

The hunters could change if riders, and owners wrote to the horse show managers and said that this: Dear Show Manager: I will no longer show my horses at any show run by you where calming medicines or natural products are allowed on the grounds. I will no longer show my horses at any show where the drug testers are NOT present every day. I will no longer show my horses at any show where the top 3 winners in at least the rated divisions are drug tested. I will never show again at a show where after positive tests are done, unless that show takes severe measures against all responsible parties of the drugged, calmed, or medicated horse. The USEF does not have to do anything, we, as customers, of these shows can do it ourselves. The show managers are providing a service to customers in order to make money. If the customers want something, it will happen. So folks, write your local show managers now as they make their plans for next year and let them know that this is their time to make these changes or they will be a lot lonelier at the show the year after. If we do not clean up the hunters, it will die. What kind of parent wants their children exposed to that level of cheating? Parents are going to put their horsey kids in another sport or another aspect of horses if they come to believe that this kind of behavior is accepted. A small group of people changed the culture about drink driving 30 years ago. No one thinks driving while intoxicated is a joke, a minor crime or something to be accepted because of those cultural changes. The hunters can do the same but it has to start with the ones, owners, riders, parents, who are paying the bills. Go for it folks.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8316618]

I don’t really think judging STANDARDS are the problem. The STANDARDS don’t call for a judge to prefer a dopey looking horse over a bright one. If they did, Jersey Boy wouldn’t have pinned over walking dead horses–and he frequently did. The problem is that judges rarely HAVE any bright/brilliant horses to pin because a lot of competitors have decided ease and consistency is more important. AND judges are trainers/riders too and many themselves do a thriving business in selling/riding/working with doped horses and it’s scary to think the business model might have to change and require more/different work.[/QUOTE]

@huntersgonewild;8316677

But in the end, it really is a function of quieter horses are easier to ride and more consistent for the weekend warriors to show up and get on. So don’t blame the judging standards, blame the lazy owners and riders who want to show up at the ring in clean riding clothes, jump around twice, and go have a glass of wine and shop at the vendor tents. That is where I think the problem lies.

Blue ribbons to you two! This is also why the calls for testing all the winners misses the point entirely. Trainers aren’t just ‘calming’ horses so they can win. They are calming them so the bad riding adult will live to show next week, too!

[Midge]

[QUOTE=kenyarider;8317018]
The hunters could change if riders, and owners wrote to the horse show managers and said that this: Dear Show Manager: I will no longer show my horses at any show run by you where calming medicines or natural products are allowed on the grounds. I will no longer show my horses at any show where the drug testers are NOT present every day. I will no longer show my horses at any show where the top 3 winners in at least the rated divisions are drug tested. I will never show again at a show where after positive tests are done, unless that show takes severe measures against all responsible parties of the drugged, calmed, or medicated horse. The USEF does not have to do anything, we, as customers, of these shows can do it ourselves. The show managers are providing a service to customers in order to make money. If the customers want something, it will happen. So folks, write your local show managers now as they make their plans for next year and let them know that this is their time to make these changes or they will be a lot lonelier at the show the year after. If we do not clean up the hunters, it will die. What kind of parent wants their children exposed to that level of cheating? Parents are going to put their horsey kids in another sport or another aspect of horses if they come to believe that this kind of behavior is accepted. A small group of people changed the culture about drink driving 30 years ago. No one thinks driving while intoxicated is a joke, a minor crime or something to be accepted because of those cultural changes. The hunters can do the same but it has to start with the ones, owners, riders, parents, who are paying the bills. Go for it folks.[/QUOTE]

First, it would be impossible to police everyone, unless you thin its okay for some show official to go digging around in your purse every time you come onto the horse show grounds.

Second, the horse show does not hire the testers so they have no control over that.

Third, most of these owners know their horses are getting some version of Perfect Prep. It’s on their bill.

[lawn_chair]

Please be careful here. I am not against natural calming products for horses, providing they are used as directed. What I am against is hours on the lunge line resulting in sometimes irreversible lameness or injury, or other untestable methods such as with-holding water and feed resulting in colic and God knows what else. The alternatives are not pretty. So perhaps a happy medium - change the judging criteria, make the courses more interesting, and test of excessive use of calming products or banned substances regularly enough so that the temptation to cheat is reduced.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=lawn chair;8317056]
Please be careful here. I am not against natural calming products for horses, providing they are used as directed.

<snip>

and test of excessive use of calming products or banned substances regularly enough so that the temptation to cheat is reduced.[/QUOTE]

I’m going to be blunt: If you are not against the use of calming products, you are part of the problem. ANY product given for the express purpose of calming is against the rules. Doesn’t matter if it’s excessive or not. ANY use is cheating.

And this is why an effort by riders/owners focused on boycotting shows is not going to work. I would wager the majority feel as this poster does. On label use of calmers is not cheating, and in fact, is fine.

[BAC]

[QUOTE=BLBGP;8316947]
No, sadly, this isn’t the cause. This is a long thread, but there are many knowledgable posts about how drugging has been going on since the ‘good old days’. It’s not something that suddenly started in 2014 with Inclusive. The drug of choice keeps changing, but the intent is the same from the 60’s (and likely earlier) to today.[/QUOTE]

I grew up in the good old days (1960s) and there was plenty of drugging going on then, but there is more variety in drugs today.