Colvin Civil Suit

[chunky_munky]

[QUOTE=kenyarider;8317018]
The hunters could change if riders, and owners wrote to the horse show managers and said that this: Dear Show Manager: I will no longer show my horses at any show run by you where calming medicines or natural products are allowed on the grounds. I will no longer show my horses at any show where the drug testers are NOT present every day. I will no longer show my horses at any show where the top 3 winners in at least the rated divisions are drug tested. I will never show again at a show where after positive tests are done, unless that show takes severe measures against all responsible parties of the drugged, calmed, or medicated horse. The USEF does not have to do anything, we, as customers, of these shows can do it ourselves. The show managers are providing a service to customers in order to make money. If the customers want something, it will happen. So folks, write your local show managers now as they make their plans for next year and let them know that this is their time to make these changes or they will be a lot lonelier at the show the year after. If we do not clean up the hunters, it will die. What kind of parent wants their children exposed to that level of cheating? Parents are going to put their horsey kids in another sport or another aspect of horses if they come to believe that this kind of behavior is accepted. A small group of people changed the culture about drink driving 30 years ago. No one thinks driving while intoxicated is a joke, a minor crime or something to be accepted because of those cultural changes. The hunters can do the same but it has to start with the ones, owners, riders, parents, who are paying the bills. Go for it folks.[/QUOTE]

Horse show management does not have the authority to take action against an exhibitor if they are considered a member in good standing with the USEF. They would most likely lose their date license.

[Darkwave]

OK…for the sake of discussion, what is so wrong with these calming products?

Other than the fact that a) they are currently banned and b) they substitute in some cases for riding skill.

Taking those two points aside, they don’t seem horribly abusive. They’re not causing pain to the horse or allowing the horse to aggravate injuries. It seems that horses on this stuff are able to canter and jump quite nicely and safely (and yes, I know there was a crash at Devon - but it is far from certain that any substance was involved in that crash).

And aren’t these better for the horses then lunge to death/no food/etc?

[lawn_chair]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8317099]
I’m going to be blunt: If you are not against the use of calming products, you are part of the problem. ANY product given for the express purpose of calming is against the rules. Doesn’t matter if it’s excessive or not. ANY use is cheating.

And this is why an effort by riders/owners focused on boycotting shows is not going to work. I would wager the majority feel as this poster does. On label use of calmers is not cheating, and in fact, is fine.[/QUOTE]

I think you mis-understood my point. I am saying that there are much worse, undetectable methods of “calming” a horse and they WILL be used. There is simply too much money at stake in this business.

[lawn_chair]

[QUOTE=Darkwave;8317137]
OK…for the sake of discussion, what is so wrong with these calming products?

Other than the fact that a) they are currently banned and b) they substitute in some cases for riding skill.

Taking those two points aside, they don’t seem horribly abusive. They’re not causing pain to the horse or allowing the horse to aggravate injuries. It seems that horses on this stuff are able to canter and jump quite nicely and safely (and yes, I know there was a crash at Devon - but it is far from certain that any substance was involved in that crash).

And aren’t these better for the horses then lunge to death/no food/etc?[/QUOTE]

Yes, thank you!

[IPEsq]

Having read the ingredients in some of the PP tubes, I think that they are probably safe. But 9 of them at a time? Do we know if that is safe? Is it “better” than LTD for a horse’s welfare? I dunno. I think it’s questionable.

[JenEM]

[QUOTE=BAC;8317102]
I grew up in the good old days (1960s) and there was plenty of drugging going on then, but there is more variety in drugs today.[/QUOTE]

I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that a lot of the “good old days” drugging was with known medications with known side effects, like ace or reserpine, that just weren’t being tested for at the time, versus now where you’ve got people injecting heaven knows what because so-and-so said it calmed down their horse. I’d argue that the change has been for the worse, because while there might be risks, at least once upon a time they were basically known risks, and you’ve got a decent idea what 1CC of Ace does to most horses, versus 1CC of ConcoctionDuJour.

USEF needs to be clearer on the intent and spirit of the rules, because haven’t we had people on here contact them about things, and basically be told as long as it doesn’t test, you’re fine, regardless of why it’s being given?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=kenyarider;8317018]
The hunters could change if riders, and owners wrote to the horse show managers and said that this: Dear Show Manager: I will no longer show my horses at any show run by you where calming medicines or natural products are allowed on the grounds. I will no longer show my horses at any show where the drug testers are NOT present every day. I will no longer show my horses at any show where the top 3 winners in at least the rated divisions are drug tested. I will never show again at a show where after positive tests are done, unless that show takes severe measures against all responsible parties of the drugged, calmed, or medicated horse. The USEF does not have to do anything, we, as customers, of these shows can do it ourselves. The show managers are providing a service to customers in order to make money. If the customers want something, it will happen. So folks, write your local show managers now as they make their plans for next year and let them know that this is their time to make these changes or they will be a lot lonelier at the show the year after. If we do not clean up the hunters, it will die. What kind of parent wants their children exposed to that level of cheating? Parents are going to put their horsey kids in another sport or another aspect of horses if they come to believe that this kind of behavior is accepted. A small group of people changed the culture about drink driving 30 years ago. No one thinks driving while intoxicated is a joke, a minor crime or something to be accepted because of those cultural changes. The hunters can do the same but it has to start with the ones, owners, riders, parents, who are paying the bills. Go for it folks.[/QUOTE]

Yanno, I thought of something like this with in my Teetotalers’ Division thread. Why not pull out all the stops and make a Clean Sport Horseshow? If the Hampton Classic could, as a show, with or without the USEF, kick out a poller, why not take this issue to managers? After all, they have a stake in attracting exhibitors.

And then I remembered these impediments:

1. HOs aren’t really the folks show managers are courting. Rather, they are the sub-contractors. The people that show managers really listen to are the trainers who bring huge herds of clients and buy stalls/entries and the rest. If you aren’t a trainer, and one booking a relatively large block of stalls, you aren’t relevant.

2. Trainers probably couldn’t fill their usual quota of, say, 30 horses going to a show if all of them had to show without calming supplements. I promise you, there will always be a really big client who doesn’t ride that well, doesn’t have time (or courage or fitness or desire) to ride that well, but who spends a lot of money with you and wants to show. How will you explain to her that she can’t come to this particular show?

3. Connected to #2. There are probably clients who don’t know their horses wouldn’t be eligible for the Teetotaler’s Horse Show. How are you going to broach this topic so that you can (carefully) get to the “Here’s why you’ll skip this horse show” topic in #2? And what if the client asks the larger question about why you have her show her horse on drugs? How are you going to explain to her that, despite the extraordinary amount of money you had her spend on buying the packer, all those lessons and training she buys, all the times you tell her she did “great” on a course (with only two fliers and a chip to the first one), still her horse needs drugs that are illegal to be competitive with her? That’s got to throw cold water on someone who thought she was doing a legitimate job of improving at a sport and doing well in competition.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8317006]
I disagree. I don’t think there is anyone that thinks they are going to win every time out. I think there are people that know they have a shot of winning each time they step into the ring, but that’s very different from what you are saying. A top rider on a top caliber horse always has a chance. that is all.

The rest of us jokers out there are just hoping it all goes according to plan and ribbons are nice but never expected.[/QUOTE]

You snipped some of my post and took it totally out of context. Peons like us aren’t who I am talking about or who this thread is about

[m_m1]

I thought Kenyarider was out of his/her mind, until you got to the part about drunk driving. The stigma against drunk drivers has, indeed,blossomed and grown in the past 30ish years, and all through the Court of Public Opinion.

I don’t think real change will occur, but it could.

And why on earth is it a God-given right to administer IV meds on a show ground? Why can’t it be “by licensed vet only”? That won’t change either, but I don’t think it’s a right guaranteed by the Constitution.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=JenEM;8317160]

USEF needs to be clearer on the intent and spirit of the rules, because haven’t we had people on here contact them about things, and basically be told as long as it doesn’t test, you’re fine, regardless of why it’s being given?[/QUOTE]

Here is the USEF’s response to my inquiry (summary of inquiry:

Me: 'I wanna use Perfect Prep because my horse gets a little nervous and tense and I would like to calm him down a bit. Is it legal?
USEF: there are many different type of PP. Which one and what are the ingredients?
Me: Perfect Prep Eq Supreme + list of ingredients from PPs website.
USEF:

Magnesium, inositol, l-trytophan, and B vitamins are permitted under the Therapeutic Substance Provision of the USEF Equine Drugs and Medications Rule; however, use of these ingredients for the purpose of calming violates the spirit and intent of the Rule.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8316915]
The solution to a problem can’t be saying “well, people won’t do it.” The idea is to craft sanctions so that the appropriate option becomes more appealing.[/QUOTE]

As the horse training aphorism goes, “make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.”

[jhg140]

[QUOTE=Darkwave;8317137]
OK…for the sake of discussion, what is so wrong with these calming products?

Other than the fact that a) they are currently banned and b) they substitute in some cases for riding skill.

Taking those two points aside, they don’t seem horribly abusive. They’re not causing pain to the horse or allowing the horse to aggravate injuries. It seems that horses on this stuff are able to canter and jump quite nicely and safely (and yes, I know there was a crash at Devon - but it is far from certain that any substance was involved in that crash).

And aren’t these better for the horses then lunge to death/no food/etc?[/QUOTE]

And honestly, they aren’t necessarily substituting for riding skill. Yes, a weekend warrior ammy may live to ride another day because their horse perhaps won’t take off bucking after they run at the chip, but that’s not your winner anyway. A couple tubes of PP isn’t gonna stop you from missing, no matter how much more rateable it makes your horse. And I’m sure there are people on this thread who know that from experience, but just don’t care to admit it.

If you really think that 2 ccs of GABA and some PP is gonna give someone like Tori Colvin that big of an edge, then I don’t think there’s anything anyone can say to you to convince you otherwise. And some of the horses that people discuss on other threads as being so “refreshing” because they are actually galloping forward, etc… you’d probably be shocked at what’s in their veins.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8317253]
You snipped some of my post and took it totally out of context. Peons like us aren’t who I am talking about or who this thread is about[/QUOTE]

I didn’t take it out of context. I put the piece about us peons in its own paragraph. But your response only focused on that, so you made it look like I did take it out of context. You’ve said multiple times that you think people have an expectation of winning every time. I disagree. Even at the top…or especially at the top.

I’m pretty darn sure that 99% of the people involved in horse sports will tell you that they know that they are not going to win every time out, from the lowly peons to the very tippy top of the sport. Heck, Liza Boyd made comments that to that fact after winning the Derby. To pretend they do believe that is to over simplify the situation. There are soooo many factors that got us to where we are today, but honestly, I think saying that people expect to win every time out isn’t one of them.

[vxf111]

I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say, but that’s ok

[Darkwave]

[QUOTE=jhg140;8317291]
And honestly, they aren’t necessarily substituting for riding skill. Yes, a weekend warrior ammy may live to ride another day because their horse perhaps won’t take off bucking after they run at the chip, but that’s not your winner anyway. A couple tubes of PP isn’t gonna stop you from missing, no matter how much more rateable it makes your horse. [/QUOTE]

Oh, I agree with this. To my mind, there’s different aspects to being a good HJ rider. One is having a great eye for a distance. Another is convincing the horse that’s a bit up to be a good boy and do his job anyway. Perfect prep is aimed at the second aspect, not the first.

In one way, you could see Perfect Prep as an equalizer, especially in the equitation division. Reduces the chance that a horse decides that he just doesn’t want to play on Medal Finals morning.

[BLBGP]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8317099]
I’m going to be blunt: If you are not against the use of calming products, you are part of the problem. ANY product given for the express purpose of calming is against the rules. Doesn’t matter if it’s excessive or not. ANY use is cheating.

And this is why an effort by riders/owners focused on boycotting shows is not going to work. I would wager the majority feel as this poster does. On label use of calmers is not cheating, and in fact, is fine.[/QUOTE]

Except not according to USEF’s press release recently. It didn’t say “hey competitors, don’t use calming agents, they’re against the rules” it said “hey competitors, be careful using calming agents that may not be labelled correctly.” That’s a pretty big statement from them that things like Perfect Prep are a-ok.

[Raymundo]

[QUOTE=hoopoe;8316913]
we got this way when after a childhood of everyone gets a prize/ trophy/award for doing anything.

We have created a society that has come to expect that it is all easy and we should be winners for showing up.

truth is that it is hard, it takes work and to do it really well one should have a solid grounding in both fence work and correct flat (dressage) mechanics

finding the trainer that knows that

well so it goes[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of what you say, but feel it should be clarified that it isn’t just the current childhoods we should condemn–drugging and cheating for ribbons has been going on for a long time. My mother who grew up in the 50s had a horse who was nerved by a trainer and resold after he was supposedly retired. I am in my 40s and don’t feel I was raised in the everyone gets a trophy era.

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=BLBGP;8316947]
No, sadly, this isn’t the cause. This is a long thread, but there are many knowledgable posts about how drugging has been going on since the ‘good old days’. It’s not something that suddenly started in 2014 with Inclusive. The drug of choice keeps changing, but the intent is the same from the 60’s (and likely earlier) to today.[/QUOTE]

“Back in the day” there was surely drugging, but most people showing were not showing with trainers. Most of the junior hunters ( and regulars as well) shipped in to , for example, Devon, in their own trailers from home. Then they showed and shipped home. Trainers were not a major factor yet. More than half of the regular working hunters were shown by their ammy owners. (This was before the A/O division existed.) For some reason, the conformation division had more pros.
Yes, surely there were forbidden substances floating around, but I do not believe for a minute that that was the default mode of competitors.

[phanilah]

The spirit of the rule vs. the prohibited substance list

USEF rule GR410 states in part – "For purposes of this rule, a forbidden substance is:

a. Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony (stimulants and/or depressants are defined as substances which stimulate or depress the cardiovascular, respiratory or central nervous systems), or any metabolite and/or analogue of any such substance or drug, except as
expressly permitted by this rule…."

Products like the Perfect Prep system are clearly marketed as providing “calming support” for horses – but none of the listed ingredients are (or will likely become) forbidden substances – so there isn’t anything to violate a drug test. Is the spirit of the rule being violated? Certainly! But how would USEF be able to enforce the rule without a positive drug test? That’s a great conundrum regarding the bigger topic of trying to control the use of “any substance(s)” for calming.

Though I do have to wonder how much do products like PP provide more of a placebo effect for the people involved rather than an actual physiological effect on the horse. Regardless, it seems to have become an embedded culture - even for schooling shows. So, back to the question of WHY is there felt to be such a need and how to address those “whys”.

As always, FWIW!

Beth

[RugBug]

vxf111: I understand you, I just disagree. I believe judging standards need to change. You don’t. I don’t think people drug because of some belief that they should win every time out, you have stated that you do. I think people drug to give themselves the best shot at winning every time they go into the ring, not that they have an expectation.

[QUOTE=BLBGP;8317358]
Except not according to USEF’s press release recently. It didn’t say “hey competitors, don’t use calming agents, they’re against the rules” it said “hey competitors, be careful using calming agents that may not be labelled correctly.” That’s a pretty big statement from them that things like Perfect Prep are a-ok.[/QUOTE]

USEF can’t figure out WHAT they mean. I was told it was against the rules by USEF. Then they allow sponsorship and made that press release. It’s double-speak…so how can we expect anyone to know what rules to follow?