Colvin Civil Suit

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8322274]
LLC’s are, by definition, Limited Liability Companies. If a business goes bankrupt, and the business is a LLC, the purpose of creating the LLC is to shield the owner’s assets from being attached by creditors of the LLC.

However, courts have recognized that using a legal entity to avoid liability so the owner can just go out and form another LLC and start the process all over again, violates the concept of “equity”:

[ https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/equity ]

Hence the concept of “piercing the corporate veil”.

[ http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/personal-liability-piercing-corporate-veil-33006.html ]

I.e. Courts can rule that, in cases where it is just not plain fair to let the business owner off the hook, the right thing to do is to look through the entity and go after the owner.

Of course, these equitable concepts address business owners and bankruptcy because there is not a large body of law dealing with horses and horse shows. But, in theory, the tools are available if the USEF chooses to go after owners of an LLC (or a Corporation). The problem here is the cost of doing it, and smart horse owners (or horse owners with smart attorneys) know that.

For those nerds who love to know about these things ----- This all goes back to jolly olde England where there were separate courts: 1. Court of Law, and 2. Court of Equity. The latter still has a presence within the Court of Law, and sometimes is used in the interests of fairness. But, in our litigious society, “equity” is taking a back seat to “law”.

There will be a test on the above on Monday, so start studying! :) )[/QUOTE]

Well put, and every LLC has a registered agent on file.  Usually there are articles of organization that lay out the ownership too.

In racing, an LLC can "own" a horse, but the owners of the LLC have to be declared and licensed.

[hoopoe]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8322306]
Definitely a hard color to pull off well. Although is is pretty when used as the lining of a shadbelly.[/QUOTE]

funny

but yes lavender is forbidden, it is in the drugs guidelines

I am continuing to be aghasted at those here who cannot see the wrong in giving PP to “relax” their horse and do not see the intent part of the rule being broken

the argument that we, as riders, can use drugs medications herbs etc is moot. The issue is that the horse has no advocate and voice in this matter except those that care for them.

They ,themselves , dont go to the medicine chest and make the choice to self medicate

[ChristinaClarLuisa]

I’ve been lurking from Dressage Land…and just read Lisa Slade’s article in the 9/14 print edition of Chronicle.
Very interesting to see, in the last paragraph, a somewhat distancing reference by Mary Babick–who I GREATLY respect as a fine horsewoman–to “people posting on the Chronicle forums”, as “opposed to people in a higher-level horse show environment,” who may be less knowledgeable.
Kudos to peeps here for garnering the attention!! But now, what will we do with it?
(Quickly adding, I’d do hunters again in a flash if my bright, alert mare was considered “suitable.”)

[hoopoe]

just because you are at “the higher level of the show world” does not make you more a horseman or more humane , ethical or knowledgeable

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=hoopoe;8322403]
just because you are at “the higher level of the show world” does not make you more a horseman or more humane , ethical or knowledgeable[/QUOTE]

Recnt events certainly bear that out…

[kmwines]

[QUOTE=carroal;8322103]
Please don’t flame me, but I’m actually fine with a tube of Perfect Prep or any other nutraceutical given as part of a horse’s routine at home or at the show. I’m no expert, but I can’t think of any athlete that is prohibited from having vitamins and herbal supplements in reasonable amounts. But no one in their right minds takes nine times the recommended dose of an f’ing vitamin or herb for multiple days in a row unless they are looking for something well beyond good health.

There is a vet school out there - and I forget which one - but it did a study and the result was recommending lavender oil dispensed in a humidifier for horses who have anxiety or separation anxiety. I’m pretty sure they were implying its use as helpful for horses who get anxious in new surroundings, i.e., at horse shows. They are looking to help horses.

But nine tubes of anything given in conjunction with Gaba AND GOD KNOWS WHAT ELSE that they know USEF is not testing for is absolutely insane and CLEARLY intended to impact performance way, way beyond “calming.” In fact there is a massive difference between the kind of calm one would get from eating a turkey sandwich or having some ginger tea and the attempt to maximize that calm through overdosing the horse. There’s a big difference between eating a poppy-seed bagel and mainlining smack even if the latter starts out in the same plant as the former. Ugh, the whole thing is such a case of wretched excess it is beyond words. One can only wonder what the hell else they are doing to those horses. Just the recklessness of it and the nerve of it floors me.[/QUOTE]

NFL players are barred from a lot of vitamin/herbal supplements

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/ravens/2013/01/29/ray-lewis-super-bowl-deer-antler-extract/1874671/

Just because its a nutraceutical doesn’t mean it’s safe or benign

[vineyridge]

They are for horses as well. What they can do and become in the body is the issue for drug rules and testers.

But you can’t ban vitamins and minerals that are naturally present in the body. What they CAN do is establish a range of presence over which horses will not go in nature and then ding horses who test over or under that range.

[pepper1986]

In the Sept. 14 edition of COTH I was very disappointed to see Another page devoted to TC stating, “Is There Anything She Can’t Win?” What was truly a joke was that this was printed in the same edition with the story about calming which is directly related to TC/BC/BP. In the story TC states that she “hopes to go out with a big bang, not a bad bang.” Any win she gets the rest of her junior year will not be a credible win now.
Come on COTH, devote some articles to some other deserving juniors or winning riders!

[skydy]

[QUOTE=kmwines;8322559]
NFL players are barred from a lot of vitamin/herbal supplements

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/ravens/2013/01/29/ray-lewis-super-bowl-deer-antler-extract/1874671/

Just because its a nutraceutical doesn’t mean it’s safe or benign[/QUOTE]

^^^This is very important point^^^.

Since “supplements”, human and equine, are not regulated as drugs, there is no way of knowing what substances supplements contain and/or in what quantities. Different batches can have different amounts of the active and inactive ingredients. New substances may be added, or current ones removed, without fanfare.

As it stands, you are taking the “word” of the manufacture about the ingredients and that is a very silly decision, if you care about not running afoul of the rules.

You (collective) use these substances at your (and your horse’s) peril, and it is ridiculous to blame the manufacturer for your lack of understanding about the endemic vagaries of the supplements that you are giving your horse.

[pepper1986]

If more officials go on record like USHJA chairman and judge Julie Winkle did in a 2012 article maybe then will the rules change on calming products such as PP. She states that the judging criteria needs to change and to stop rewarding horses for robotic conformity.

www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/us/ponys-death-draws-notice-to-drugs-in-show-ring.html

[pepper1986]

Thank you, Hoopoe. As I stated before A horse does not ask for these calming substances. The horse doesn’t get a say in what it’s given. All a horse ask for is love and understanding from us and it’s up to us to give it!

[kenyarider]

Folks, What you are doing by continuing this discussion to 51 pages is exactly what makes the culture change. MADD did that in the 1980’s with drunk driving, so we can do it now in the hunters and “calming” or “natural” ingredients - make it socially unacceptable for people to be caught using these things. We are social creatures and we want to be recognized and applauded. If it is unacceptable to give your horse things that “calm” him/her, it will stop. I am happy to see 51 pages on this link. But the next step is for people all over the US to start lobbying at the local level against “calming” anything for a horse. Let’s start now.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=kenyarider;8322968]
If it is unacceptable to give your horse things that “calm” him/her, it will stop. I am happy to see 51 pages on this link. But the next step is for people all over the US to start lobbying at the local level against “calming” anything for a horse. Let’s start now.[/QUOTE]

Until it is unacceptable to the USEF and USHJA then it doesn’t matter what anyone else (on any level, local or otherwise) thinks. USEF continues to allow this to happen.
After all this, they continue to keep the loopehole open. All that is necessary for anyone to give a calming supplement to their horse is to say “I give it as a treat,he likes the taste” or “he’s vitamin deficient”.

As long as you deny that you are giving it for “calming” purposes, you’re within the rules, and that has not changed. Now would be a great time to revisit the rules, however I’m not getting the feeling that USEF is ready to crack down.
Hopefully I’m wrong…

[m_m1]

[QUOTE=pepper1986;8322906]
If more officials go on record like USHJA chairman and judge Julie Winkle did in a 2012 article maybe then will the rules change on calming products such as PP. She states that the judging criteria needs to change and to stop rewarding horses for robotic conformity.

www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/us/ponys-death-draws-notice-to-drugs-in-show-ring.html[/QUOTE]

This article also states that, on the track, only licensed veterinarians are allowed to give injections. That, in and of itself, would make cheating a lot easier to identify. Or maybe it would just mean that used needles would end up in regular trash.

[bamboopole]

Most of the hunter/jumper world is breathing a big sigh of relief. Let someone else be the topic of conversation for a few months.
Hunters will still be overmedicated, over-ridden and over-lunged. The SHARPS boxes at indoors will be jammed full daily (smart barns toke their own anyhow - get them picked up at home).
At the top levels, every trainer and owner will do what ever it takes to win. That’s why so much is invested in great farriers, veterinarians, machinery, and knowledgeable barn help.

A change in hunter judging would be nice. Committee - Are you reading any of this ridiculous 50 pages? My med trunk would be light, the horses could come out for a handwalk in the morning rather than a longe, my riders could sleep in and my staff certainly would love to longe only to get out the bucks.

As for setting down the rider, that’s not a bad idea. Certainly worth discussing again. Definitely the horse that gets a positive D&M test should be set down. If you’re overmedicating, doesn’t the damn horse deserve a rest?

[hoopoe]

As for setting down the rider, that’s not a bad idea. Certainly worth discussing again. Definitely the horse that gets a positive D&M test should be set down. If you’re overmedicating, doesn’t the damn horse deserve a rest

and this should include junior riders all the way down to the lead line

biggest pressure group in the game

if baby aint happy , no one is

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=handwalk;8323178]
Most of the hunter/jumper world is breathing a big sigh of relief. Let someone else be the topic of conversation for a few months.
Hunters will still be overmedicated, over-ridden and over-lunged. The SHARPS boxes at indoors will be jammed full daily (smart barns toke their own anyhow - get them picked up at home).
At the top levels, every trainer and owner will do what ever it takes to win. That’s why so much is invested in great farriers, veterinarians, machinery, and knowledgeable barn help.

A change in hunter judging would be nice. Committee - Are you reading any of this ridiculous 50 pages? My med trunk would be light, the horses could come out for a handwalk in the morning rather than a longe, my riders could sleep in and my staff certainly would love to longe only to get out the bucks.

As for setting down the rider, that’s not a bad idea. Certainly worth discussing again. Definitely the horse that gets a positive D&M test should be set down. If you’re overmedicating, doesn’t the damn horse deserve a rest?[/QUOTE]

I think the course design also needs to change. Although judges are the ones awarding the placings, what else can they do to distinguish between trips over the same type of courses over and over? How else can they distinguish horses other than a bit of playing or a head toss or an ear flicked in the wrong direction?

Ultimately, it’s everyone’s fault. The judges for awarding the robotic ride and penalizing a bit of playing or forwardness. The course designers for using the same type of jumps every time, the show management for hiring course designers who won’t take a chance on doing something different, …

[mvp]

[QUOTE=skydy;8322985]
Until it is unacceptable to the USEF and USHJA then it doesn’t matter what anyone else (on any level, local or otherwise) thinks. USEF continues to allow this to happen.
After all this, they continue to keep the loopehole open. All that is necessary for anyone to give a calming supplement to their horse is to say “I give it as a treat,he likes the taste” or “he’s vitamin deficient”.

As long as you deny that you are giving it for “calming” purposes, you’re within the rules, and that has not changed. Now would be a great time to revisit the rules, however I’m not getting the feeling that USEF is ready to crack down.
Hopefully I’m wrong…[/QUOTE]

I think you are wrong. The USEF et al. ultimately will succumb to social pressure because it gets expensive not to.

FWIW, I think show managers hold a lot of power and could also contribute to positive change. I don’t think they want to bother because they traditionally have not. (The Hampton Classic recently offered a refreshing counter-example). But I think Big Barn Trainers and Show Managers are the “stake holder” groups closer/economically more important to the USEF than is the rank-and-file membership. And I think Show Managers can better afford to “Just Say No” than can individual trainers.

But the average, bill-paying HO needs to vote with her feet and her wallet… and she needs to be explicit about her refusal to fund or participate in dirty sport.

HOs, why not start by asking what “medications” your horse gets at the horse shows and why those are given? I always know those answers for my horse(s). And I have never worked with a trainer who wouldn’t have a transparent, frank discussion with me about that.

Those are good places to start: Knowing what your animal is one and why; and making sure your pro is candid with you.

ETA: Same great idea for parents of juniors. I can’t imagine a parent committed enough to their kid to fund a horse showing career also being unwilling to take the trainer by the scruff and telling him/her to make sure the kid is safe on top of the drugged jumping animal.

[MoonLadyIsis]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8323245]
I think the course design also needs to change. Although judges are the ones awarding the placings, what else can they do to distinguish between trips over the same type of courses over and over? How else can they distinguish horses other than a bit of playing or a head toss or an ear flicked in the wrong direction?

Ultimately, it’s everyone’s fault. The judges for awarding the robotic ride and penalizing a bit of playing or forwardness. The course designers for using the same type of jumps every time, the show management for hiring course designers who won’t take a chance on doing something different, …[/QUOTE]

I will also add to this that we, as riders, need to be realistic about our own riding. For example, one show I went to, rather than the usual single vertical to start the course, started with a single oxer. I thought it was a very nice inviting oxer, going towards the gate etc. Many of the other adults in my division (it was the younger A/A) and several in the middle and older adults were petrified of starting over an oxer before they had really gotten their rhythm going. My feeling is that if you mentally psych out at starting your course with an oxer (that is no larger than the rest of the course) so much so that you go to the office to scratch, then you do not belong doing that division. Trainers need to be able to tell the clients that they aren’t ready for a level and riders need to be open to accepting that fact. I see many riders (across all the disciplines, not just hunters, but jumpers, eventers and dressage have this problem as well) that want to do levels they really do not have the fundamentals for because they want to show in a recognized division.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=ChristinaClarLuisa;8322393]
I’ve been lurking from Dressage Land…and just read Lisa Slade’s article in the 9/14 print edition of Chronicle.
Very interesting to see, in the last paragraph, a somewhat distancing reference by Mary Babick–who I GREATLY respect as a fine horsewoman–to “people posting on the Chronicle forums”, as “opposed to people in a higher-level horse show environment,” who may be less knowledgeable. [/QUOTE]

Which group of people does Ms. Babick claim is less knowledgeable? I can’t tell from the way you have written the sentence.

And there are some folks who post here who go to the big shows. I hope she is not condescending to COTHers, having not bothered to figure out whether or not they are not the same group as those with the expertise she respects.

And let’s assume she’s right: Anyone complaining about the drugging problem in the hunter ring is just… ignorant. It seems to me that, at the very least, those at the top of hunterworld have a PR problem to solve.