Menu

Stay in Touch
Sign up for ENews
Subscribe Now

Unlimited access >

Menu

Colvin Civil Suit

Hunter/Jumper
#1021

[QUOTE=mvp;8323255]
I think you are wrong. The USEF et al. ultimately will succumb to social pressure because it gets expensive not to.

FWIW, I think show managers hold a lot of power and could also contribute to positive change. I don’t think they want to bother because they traditionally have not. (The Hampton Classic recently offered a refreshing counter-example). But I think Big Barn Trainers and Show Managers are the “stake holder” groups closer/economically more important to the USEF than is the rank-and-file membership. And I think Show Managers can better afford to “Just Say No” than can individual trainers.

But the average, bill-paying HO needs to vote with her feet and her wallet… and she needs to be explicit about her refusal to fund or participate in dirty sport.

HOs, why not start by asking what “medications” your horse gets at the horse shows and why those are given? I always know those answers for my horse(s). And I have never worked with a trainer who wouldn’t have a transparent, frank discussion with me about that.

Those are good places to start: Knowing what your animal is one and why; and making sure your pro is candid with you.

ETA: Same great idea for parents of juniors. I can’t imagine a parent committed enough to their kid to fund a horse showing career also being unwilling to take the trainer by the scruff and telling him/her to make sure the kid is safe on top of the drugged jumping animal.[/QUOTE]

You can’t imagine it? That’s what is happening.

#1022

[QUOTE=mvp;8323255]
I think you are wrong. The USEF et al. ultimately will succumb to social pressure because it gets expensive not to.

FWIW, I think show managers hold a lot of power and could also contribute to positive change. I don’t think they want to bother because they traditionally have not. (The Hampton Classic recently offered a refreshing counter-example). But I think Big Barn Trainers and Show Managers are the “stake holder” groups closer/economically more important to the USEF than is the rank-and-file membership. And I think Show Managers can better afford to “Just Say No” than can individual trainers.

But the average, bill-paying HO needs to vote with her feet and her wallet… and she needs to be explicit about her refusal to fund or participate in dirty sport.

HOs, why not start by asking what “medications” your horse gets at the horse shows and why those are given? I always know those answers for my horse(s). And I have never worked with a trainer who wouldn’t have a transparent, frank discussion with me about that.

Those are good places to start: Knowing what your animal is one and why; and making sure your pro is candid with you.

ETA: Same great idea for parents of juniors. I can’t imagine a parent committed enough to their kid to fund a horse showing career also being unwilling to take the trainer by the scruff and telling him/her to make sure the kid is safe on top of the drugged jumping animal.[/QUOTE]

You can’t imagine it? :confused: That’s what is happening. The mother of a junior,set down for drugging the horse her child was riding, is the topic of this thread.

#1023

I am still amazed owners allow the barn manager, or a groom, or whomever has access to the meds trunk, to medicate the whole barn.
So few have veterinary training, if any. When some “trainer” kills or wrongly medicates a horse, will the insurance company pay? When an unqualified person administered medication isn’t this illegal?
Forget the ethics of all of this “sticking” going on - is it legal?
Why wasn’t Ms. Colvin arrested for horse abuse since she isn’t a qualified veterinarian? Why isn’t PETA all over this issue?

#1024

[QUOTE=skydy;8323306]

You can’t imagine it? That’s what is happening.[/QUOTE]

No, it’s not what is happening…or to be more precise, it is only happening to a select group. There are many more parents that have no idea what horsie ws given prior to going in the show ring. BC is an educated horsewoman in her own right. She knows. But some horseshow mom or dad that is transportation/cheering section/emotional support/bill payor? They have no idea littel Suzie Q is riding a drugged animal and most likely wouldn’t agree to it if they understood the ramifications.

#1025

[QUOTE=skydy;8323309]

You can’t imagine it? :confused: That’s what is happening. The mother of a junior,set down for drugging the horse her child was riding, is the topic of this thread.[/QUOTE]

I think the Colvins are doing something different from what the average non-pro junior and her parents are doing. I believe Brigid Colvin more or less knew what was being done and convinced herself that it was safe enough. I also think she saw that she had to comply in order to get her kid access to riding opportunities that could be attained no other way.

I think that experience/position/state of mind is not like the parents who simply pay the kid’s barn bill each month (or has the accountant do that), shows up to cheer at the big shows, enjoys the pictures, thanks God his/her kid is showing horses and building a college resume rather than hanging out doing nothing with the wrong people, and doesn’t look much deeper into how kiddo gets to the show ring.

What I do think Brigid Colvin and these more average show parents (as well as the riding juniors) have in common is a descent into excessive drugging that is gradual, not discussed with clarity and is common in the hunter ring. That’s how you wake up one day admitting to having been the “trainer” of a horse under the duress of having a Steward ask you. That’s how you end up with nine tubes of Perfect Prep in you horse and thinking that some how you scooted between the Scylla of cheating and the Charibdis of not being competitive.

#1026

[QUOTE=mvp;8323509]
…That’s how you end up with nine tubes of Perfect Prep in you horse and thinking that some how you scooted between the Scylla of cheating and the Charibdis of not being competitive.[/QUOTE]

The only public message boards I’ve encountered yet in which the general level of discourse routinely includes things like casual allusions to Homer.

Love it.

#1027

[QUOTE=lmlacross;8323538]
The only public message boards I’ve encountered yet in which the general level of discourse routinely includes things like casual allusions to Homer.

Love it.[/QUOTE]

Yanno, the ancient Greek authors and playwrights really did consider every dilemma and pleasure any of us could ever encounter, even the 21st century American hunter ring.

Don’t you think that the Scylla/Charibdis thing-- two equally fearsome monsters-- does describe the thought process inside the drugging trainer’s mind?

I mean, you didn’t intend to end up here when you started training horses.

You didn’t even intend to end up here when you had one tube of PP in a horse and thought, “Well… he’s still not good enough with the cool weather and all, and given that Fancier Horse and Trainer are here. It won’t kill him to try a second “OTC” kind of paste calmer. I guess let’s try it this once.”

And you maybe did pause and thing to yourself when you said “Yes, I get it that any substance-- testable or not-- used with the intention of getting a horse quieter is problem. Heck, I’m a savvy pro who could wink and nod along with the other people about hunters who tested positive for cocaine back in the day. But I also know that the rubber meets the road when we get into stuff that will test or not. Everything else is, de facto, fair game… because, damn, Fancier Horse and Trainer are still here and we gotta do something…”

So with those three impetuses in mind (impetii?) you somehow get to 9 (!) tubes of the “will not test” stuff. And by the time you are there in the stall with more tubes than you can fit in both of your jeans’ back pockets (Scylla) and the Fancier Horse/Trainer 3 barns over (Charibdis), you are stuck and do what you have to do.

And you don’t mean to do this forever. You are sure that, sooner or later, this “solution” to the requirement for the robotic, loping WP jumping horse will be prohibited. You may or may not have done some IV injections of GABA while that was still an available option. But for today, with PP available and those other horses out there to beat you (with or without chemical help), you do what works for today.

Maybe that’s part of the problem. The descent into cheating and staying there or not is always couched as a “just this once” thing or “I’d stop if the competition and circumstances allowed it.” No one is saying to themselves anything “big” like, “If I do this, I’m cheating. Let’s be clear on that.” Or, “If I don’t tell the kid riding this horse and something goes wrong, I might have a part in creating a huge tragedy.”

Just some thoughts. I don’t know the section of the Illiad in which Homer discussed this.

And you m

#1028

[QUOTE=handwalk;8323399]
I am still amazed owners allow the barn manager, or a groom, or whomever has access to the meds trunk, to medicate the whole barn.
So few have veterinary training, if any. When some “trainer” kills or wrongly medicates a horse, will the insurance company pay? When an unqualified person administered medication isn’t this illegal?
Forget the ethics of all of this “sticking” going on - is it legal?
Why wasn’t Ms. Colvin arrested for horse abuse since she isn’t a qualified veterinarian? Why isn’t PETA all over this issue?[/QUOTE]

It is legal. You do not have to be a veterinarian to medicate a horse. You do, however, have to do it on the advice of a veterinarian. It’s just like giving medications to your pets. You don;t have to have the vet give your pets their medications.

#1029

[QUOTE=mvp;8323509]
u That’s how you end up with nine tubes of Perfect Prep in you horse and thinking that some how you scooted between the Scylla of cheating and the Charibdis of not being competitive.[/QUOTE]

I love this board.

#1030

[QUOTE=Midge;8323609]
It is legal. You do not have to be a veterinarian to medicate a horse. You do, however, have to do it on the advice of a veterinarian. It’s just like giving medications to your pets. You don;t have to have the vet give your pets their medications.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is. Guess I’m not clear.
Under supervision of a veterinarian is rather loose. We buy cases of meds. In our barn one trained person, who has discussed each case with our veterinarians, administers each dose.
That’s not the same elsewhere. That’s concerning.
We can and do medicate our own horses and pets, not other peoples - especially when the horses cost 7 figures.

#1031

[QUOTE=mvp;8323303]
Which group of people does Ms. Babick claim is less knowledgeable? I can’t tell from the way you have written the sentence.

And there are some folks who post here who go to the big shows. I hope she is not condescending to COTHers, having not bothered to figure out whether or not they are not the same group as those with the expertise she respects.

And let’s assume she’s right: Anyone complaining about the drugging problem in the hunter ring is just… ignorant. It seems to me that, at the very least, those at the top of hunterworld have a PR problem to solve.[/QUOTE]

Hello to all,

To clear up any confusion regarding my words here is the quote referenced from the article in The Chronicle:

Some trainers still compete without the use of the supplements. Babick noted she spends some time educating her new clients on what her barn will and won’t use - explaining the reasons behind it.

“I think the sponsored riders may not understand they’re violating the spirit of the rule. I don’t think they’re trying to be jerks. I think education is a really large part of this,” said Babick, of Middletown, NJ. “I also think there’s a really large divide; when you look at people posting on the Chronicle forums, some of them, they’re very hands-on people, and perhaps they’re keeping horses at home, as opposed to people who are in a higher-level horse show environment - not that the two can’t exist at the same time. But some of the people keeping their horses at boarding barns might not even understand how to ask a question about these things.”

To clarify my words:

We use only medications prescribed by our vet after a diagnosis has been made. And, if the horse is uncomfortable or unhappy in any way we do not show.

Thanks so much,

Mary Babick

#1032

[QUOTE=RugBug;8323415]
But some horseshow mom or dad that is transportation/cheering section/emotional support/bill payor? They have no idea littel Suzie Q is riding a drugged animal and most likely wouldn’t agree to it if they understood the ramifications.[/QUOTE]

I’m going to express a very cynical view here:

Most parents who are able to fund little Susie riding at this high level come by that wealth through major success in the workplace.

And (here’s the real cynical part) in many cases, people who succeed in the workplace do so by being willing to be “flexible” and “innovative” in certain areas, and by being open to the concept of “I don’t need to know the details of what you’re doing as long as you accomplish the end goal”.

#1033

[QUOTE=Darkwave;8323628]
I’m going to express a very cynical view here:

Most parents who are able to fund little Susie riding at this high level come by that wealth through major success in the workplace.

And (here’s the real cynical part) in many cases, people who succeed in the workplace do so by being willing to be “flexible” and “innovative” in certain areas, and by being open to the concept of “I don’t need to know the details of what you’re doing as long as you accomplish the end goal”.[/QUOTE]

Susie’s parents also pay big bucks to make certain she’s on a calm, well mannered horse that appears safe and she won’t get hurt. Therefore the trainer makes damn certain this horse appears mannerly and wins, however the end result is obtained.

A subset of show parents are condoning drugs for relaxation because they’re duped in to believing its in their best interest. Trust the trainer, he/she knows best. Why of course, they’re the professional…
Trainer will be soon replaced when Susie is found dumped again by the non-drugged finely tuned athlete even if he snaps his knees with perfect bascule like he was bred to do, as Susie can’t ride her fancy 6 figure imported hunter without “a little help” at the shows. Trainer suggested.

sorry, a bit off topic from the Colvin subject.

#1034

[QUOTE=ponyflyer;8323622]
Hello to all,

To clear up any confusion regarding my words here is the quote referenced from the article in The Chronicle:

Some trainers still compete without the use of the supplements. Babick noted she spends some time educating her new clients on what her barn will and won’t use - explaining the reasons behind it.

“I think the sponsored riders may not understand they’re violating the spirit of the rule. I don’t think they’re trying to be jerks. I think education is a really large part of this,” said Babick, of Middletown, NJ. “I also think there’s a really large divide; when you look at people posting on the Chronicle forums, some of them, they’re very hands-on people, and perhaps they’re keeping horses at home, as opposed to people who are in a higher-level horse show environment - not that the two can’t exist at the same time. But some of the people keeping their horses at boarding barns might not even understand how to ask a question about these things.”

To clarify my words:

We use only medications prescribed by our vet after a diagnosis has been made. And, if the horse is uncomfortable or unhappy in any way we do not show.

Thanks so much,

Mary Babick[/QUOTE]

Anyone who thinks Mary Babick is anything but a fine, upstanding, conscientious and compassionate horseman, obviously doesn’t know Mary. I’m sure there are those who are “innovative” and “flexible” … Mary is not one of them.

#1035

[QUOTE=pepper1986;8322855]
In the Sept. 14 edition of COTH I was very disappointed to see Another page devoted to TC stating, “Is There Anything She Can’t Win?” What was truly a joke was that this was printed in the same edition with the story about calming which is directly related to TC/BC/BP. In the story TC states that she “hopes to go out with a big bang, not a bad bang.” Any win she gets the rest of her junior year will not be a credible win now.
Come on COTH, devote some articles to some other deserving juniors or winning riders![/QUOTE]

Have you seen her latest ride?
https://www.facebook.com/MusicForDeepMeditation/videos/vb.84315359424/10153357063979425/?type=2&theater

#1036

I am coming into this thread late but wouldn’t it be crazy to put someone on a horse to do the jumpers when they are used to riding horses that are drugged? Please no flaming, just curious…

#1037

[QUOTE=carroal;8323708]
Have you seen her latest ride?
https://www.facebook.com/MusicForDeepMeditation/videos/vb.84315359424/10153357063979425/?type=2&theater[/QUOTE]

That is the only kind of ride anyone should get after a doping/drugging offense.

#1038

Charybdis

#1039

This spin is fascinating. First TC is lauded as the most “hands-on” junior rider out there. But suddenly when her horse tests positive and additionally the outrageous overdosing of supplements becomes a matter of public record, she’s not hands-on enough to know anything about it at all.

And on top of that, those who are critical of giving a horse nine tubes of a supplement plus some kind of bespoke paste and Gaba must have never had their horse “at a boarding barn” and be some kind of lower-level hacks who just don’t understand the importance and the complexityof prep at a “boarding barn.”

Well shucks, m’am, excuse me while I go back on the lower forty to feed my pony in his run-in shelter made of sticks while listening to banjo music. I’ve no doubt that there are many clients who somehow don’t see or ask what goes into their horse, but come on.

#1040

[QUOTE=RugBug;8323415]
No, it’s not what is happening…or to be more precise, it is only happening to a select group. There are many more parents that have no idea what horsie ws given prior to going in the show ring. BC is an educated horsewoman in her own right. She knows. But some horseshow mom or dad that is transportation/cheering section/emotional support/bill payor? They have no idea littel Suzie Q is riding a drugged animal and most likely wouldn’t agree to it if they understood the ramifications.[/QUOTE]

I hope that you’re right, and if you were speaking of something other than the A/AA hunter shows I might actually believe you.
If you look at the A/AA hunter results you’ll see the same names over and over, and the same trainers, many of whom are on the committees that make the rules.

I just don’t believe that a “grass roots” effort will make a difference UNTIL the governing body finally grows some b@lls and does what it was meant to do, GOVERN.

So few winning horses are tested. Go back (if you have a lot time) and see how many trainers have been slapped on the wrist by USEF, how many of them are on USHJA committees and consider how few horses are tested. Look through the FEI website and see what has been happening. The FEI (unlike USEF) is now cracking down and giving 2 year suspensions of the Persons Responsible for banned substances. There are still people who take the chance and cheat! Do you believe that people will really stop drugging hunters of their own volition?

It is my (admittedly insignificant) opinion that when there is rot at the top it must be addressed from the top down.
It is not an outlandish proposition to expect the USEF or the USHJA to actually address the situation with better RULES.

As it was, the “I spend a hell of a lot of money on this thing for my kid and I expect results” ( my kid to win ribbons) culture was apparent back when I was involved with hunters, though not nearly so prevalent as it is today.
Thankfully it was never an issue at the barn I was involved with. I would have been gone in a flash and, you know what? No one would have cared, as no one will care now if your “everyday” people leave.

In this win win culture, the expectation that people will self police is, to me, an unrealistic one.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?474785-Simpson-and-Horse-Why-Not-Suspended-by-FEI

A young person who’s parents are professionals.

Get your Digital Subscription here - only $21.95 / year

Subscribe here
See gift options

Sign up to our monthly newsletter!

By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.

Copyright © 2023 The Chronicle of the Horse