Commercial Feed vs. Non-Commercial Feed? (That is the question.)

[Obsidian_Fire]

This has been an interesting discussion.

I wonder what our horses would all look like were they able to have 24/7 turnout on pastures large enough and lush enough to supply all their forage needs…
and owners with enough time/discipline to curry those dapples into existence. (what a blissful daydream). :yes:

We forget, some of that shiny dappled coat is a result of elbow grease, not just feed.

I will say tho, proper eating (not out of a box), plenty of water, fresh air, and exercise puts a glow into my skin that no beauty cream, makeup or “supplement” will ever achieve. I imagine horses are the same.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8456860]
Palm Beach- I don’t think over processed means “little nutrition.” Rather, I think of “over processed” as ingredients that are greatly departed from how they would be encountered naturally.

Feeds composed of a large percentage of wheat middlings would be at the top of the list of what I would consider over processed. But they are used because they have a lot of benefits, namely being an affordable binder with reasonable nutrition. We can create these lower starch feeds with wheat midds, which are “better” for pleasure horses who don’t need the energy from whole grains. But the wheat midds are drastically different than how horses naturally receive their nutrition- they are byproduct after the flour portion is removed, they are refined, etc.

A large number of feeds also contain artificial flavorings, colorings, and preservatives. Artificial doesn’t always equal bad, but those are definitely things that utilize a high degree of processing. We can add a lot of oils and fats to feeds thanks to preservatives and stabilization. Horses tolerate those fats and oils well, but again, it’s quite different from how they would naturally acquire those calories.

Vitamin and mineral fortification is not all created equal. Many of the additives are food based, some come from other “natural” sources, others are synthesized. Fortification allows us to close nutritional gaps, but not necessarily naturally.

And then there is soy- a product that is unusable in its raw form, but can provide extremely high quality protein with some degree of “processing.”

None of these things are “bad” IMHO. Like I said in my earlier post, these are the things that put top lines and dapples on our horses without all that much effort on the part of humans. But we are also seeing what seems to be an increase in unhealthy side effects from these feeds. Personally, I think moderation is usually the best practice- utilize over processed ingredients only when needed, which is what I believe most good horse people try to do anyway.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying, but when a feeding program starts with 15-20 lbs of hay/pasture a day, that IS a natural, minimally processed feed program. And there isn’t any research supporting your comment about “increase in unhealthy side effects” of commercial feeds. In fact, we know so much more about equine nutrition and the commercial feeds have improved to reflect this advancement in knowledge. Yes, we are still learning, and commercial feeds will continue to improve as we learn. But as they are now, I feel there are some really great products out there.

[Scribbler]

Horses in general do very well on nice pasture. This is not something that is under debate by the horse nutritionists. That doesn’t mean that its going to be suitable for every ulcer-ridden, neurotic, fence pacing OTTB, or every obese, 25 year old Cushings pony, just most horses. The problem is that nice pasture — mixed forage on an area large enough to support the herd — often isn’t available due to the cost of land, and is seasonal.

[candyappy]

Is this too simple a solution?

Why not give your horses all they hay they can eat? From another post you were talking about the cost of a bale of hay and that kept you from feeding more. I would greatly increase your hay to start. After a time you might be able to decrease/ eliminate the alfalfa cubes and pellets and just feed oats/ supplements and minerals you now use.

I have had a wide variety of breeds over the years and never had to feed huge amounts of grains or other things when good quality hay was fed in abundance.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

[QUOTE=Obsidian Fire;8458327]
This has been an interesting discussion.

I wonder what our horses would all look like were they able to have 24/7 turnout on pastures large enough and lush enough to supply all their forage needs…
and owners with enough time/discipline to curry those dapples into existence. (what a blissful daydream). :yes:

We forget, some of that shiny dappled coat is a result of elbow grease, not just feed.

I will say tho, proper eating (not out of a box), plenty of water, fresh air, and exercise puts a glow into my skin that no beauty cream, makeup or “supplement” will ever achieve. I imagine horses are the same.[/QUOTE]

I have a young warmblood mare that I truly believed was a terribly hard keeper. I boarded her for her initial years (at various commercial barns) until I brought her to my farm at age 4. If I turned her out for 24 hours a day she would explode like a tick. During the summer she gets about 4-6 hours on grass a day. My pastures are LUSH. She gets a pound of ration balancer (Purina Enrich–gasp). She has dapples although I’m not great about brushing daily.

I think I would founder most (really most) horses at my place if they got 24x7 turnout. I’m having a really hard time keeping the weight off everyone. I don’t even let the donkeys on the grass anymore. I use small hole nets to give them something to do.

It’s a whole different hard-to-manage problem.

OP–I also thing it is weird that everyone went out-of-whack at the same time on the feed after doing great.

[lorilu]

So I have to ask, what are the qualifications of the “Whole foods nutritionalist”?

[lorilu]

Another thing to consider is that commercial feeds are formulated to the needs of the soil in the area where they are sold - here in Florida, we lack selenium, so commercial feeds make it up. In other areas, there is lots of selenium in the soil, so commercial feeds don’t add any (yes I know it is dangerous in high amounts, which is why I do not separately supplement with it).
Back to my point - perhaps the “whole foods” diet is missing enough of an essential amino acid or a mineral…

[Ghazzu]

@Obsidian Fire;8458327

This has been an interesting discussion.

I wonder what our horses would all look like were they able to have 24/7 turnout on pastures large enough and lush enough to supply all their forage needs…

Probably an uptick in laminitis cases.

[froglander]

[QUOTE=Obsidian Fire;8458327]
This has been an interesting discussion.

I wonder what our horses would all look like were they able to have 24/7 turnout on pastures large enough and lush enough to supply all their forage needs…
and owners with enough time/discipline to curry those dapples into existence. (what a blissful daydream). :yes:

We forget, some of that shiny dappled coat is a result of elbow grease, not just feed.

I will say tho, proper eating (not out of a box), plenty of water, fresh air, and exercise puts a glow into my skin that no beauty cream, makeup or “supplement” will ever achieve. I imagine horses are the same.[/QUOTE]

My gelding was out on a well maintained pasture (approx 10 acres) for 6 months over the summer (pasture board while we moved). Leave it to him to lose weight on 24/7 pasture (with 1lb of TC30 a day). He is back on TC Senior (5lbs a day) and as much grass hay he will eat (yay porta-grazer so he doesn’t waste half of it) plus a flake or two of perennial peanut hay.

He’s a 9 year old mustang gelding, you’d think he’d be an easy keeper

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=Obsidian Fire;8458327]
This has been an interesting discussion.

I wonder what our horses would all look like were they able to have 24/7 turnout on pastures large enough and lush enough to supply all their forage needs…
and owners with enough time/discipline to curry those dapples into existence. (what a blissful daydream). :yes:

We forget, some of that shiny dappled coat is a result of elbow grease, not just feed.

QUOTE]

That is interesting to read, since the dapples on our horses are firstly from their genetics and secondly, enhanced with much exercise! I have never been able to have the great dappling with just feeding or just brushing, even on lots of grazing. My horses do get most of their summer food as forage from grazing. Not much grain even in hard work, maybe a couple pounds at most once a day, when compared to the vast grain quantities fed by other horse folks.

I have read that dapples are a sign of more effective heat dispersal on working animals and are visible on the heat images of horses. I do know they are much more visible, distinct, on our horses with dapples in their genetics. Dapples were still quite visible as a lacy effect when fully body clipped in summer coats.

I have never been able to make dapples appear on horses without dapples in their family genetics. Even if I worked the that horse hard to be extremely fit in competition, they never got dappled.

[LookmaNohands]

I would talk to a nutritionist. That is your best bet.

Having said that, I switched to Blue Seal feeds about three years ago and my horses look and feel great with no problems.

[JB]

Dapples are genetic and seasonal. By seasonal I mean, a change of coat will temporarily dapple a lot of horses, but also most dilutes, particularly palomino and buckskin, will be dappled, some to the extreme, with their Winter or Summer coat, but not the other, and usually it’s Winter, with often some mild dapples in the darker Summer coat.

Grooming can bring them out if they were hiding under mud

Horses were indeed designed to be outside foraging/grazing, but not on the lush pastures that we like to provide. Sure, with how we’ve bred many horses, lush pasture all Summer does their weight a world of good - my mare is like that, she looks fantastic in ways that hay just never does. But for others it’s practically a death sentence, or they just get fatter and fatter.

[Rusty15]

[QUOTE=Losgelassenheit;8450400]
Hay has been unchanged, it’s a consistent high quality T&A.

Formerly, we fed Ultium and Strategy, with beet pulp included in the PM ration.

Currently we are feeding a base of alfalfa pellets and whole oats, together with Renew Gold (rice bran/coconut meal) as the fat source, fresh ground flax, and a vit/min supplement dosed out based on size of horse or pony. We have also exchanged the beet pulp for alfalfa cubes with the PM ration. Overall far more nutrition, fiber, and roughage in the diet, which is a great thing since we have virtually no pasture. I’m just having a hard time processing how their various ailments have improved, yet their overall condition is now suffering.[/QUOTE]

This is very interesting. I made the switch to nearly the same diet. Whole oats, alfalfa pellets, flax supplement from Smartpak, and Renew Gold. My horse is shinier and more filled out than on commercial feed. I mean, I thought he looked good then but he REALLY looks good now. He also–strange as it sounds–seems to have less inflammation issues and is more willing under saddle. Are they getting enough hay? I don’t weigh mine out every day because that’s impossible, but he clears 20lbs of hay easily. Daily he gets 4lbs oats, 6lbs alfalfa pellets, and 1lb renew gold. When I first tried out the au natural diet he was only getting 1lb renew gold with 2lbs alfalfa pellets daily and his coat went to crap and he was on the thin side. Not bad but just looking a little ribby. It took a while to get the amounts perfect but once I did he BLOSSOMED.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Rusty15;8459721]
This is very interesting. I made the switch to nearly the same diet. Whole oats, alfalfa pellets, flax supplement from Smartpak, and Renew Gold. My horse is shinier and more filled out than on commercial feed. I mean, I thought he looked good then but he REALLY looks good now. He also–strange as it sounds–seems to have less inflammation issues and is more willing under saddle. Are they getting enough hay? I don’t weigh mine out every day because that’s impossible, but he clears 20lbs of hay easily. Daily he gets 4lbs oats, 6lbs alfalfa pellets, and 1lb renew gold. When I first tried out the au natural diet he was only getting 1lb renew gold with 2lbs alfalfa pellets daily and his coat went to crap and he was on the thin side. Not bad but just looking a little ribby. It took a while to get the amounts perfect but once I did he BLOSSOMED.[/QUOTE]

OK, but IMHO you are feeding a lot of hard feed - 10 lbs, plus you add the Renew Gold. And if Renew Gold is a very highly processed product, nothing “whole food” about that. One of the things Renew Gold touts is a decrease in the amount of hard feed. I lay up tbs, and the worst hat racks only get 12 lbs a feed a day, and only for about 30 days, then they are gaining good and I cut them back. And that is without any additional supplements.

When you use a premium feed, all the good stuff is already in there - the rice bran, the flax, the quality protein, the carefully balanced vitamins and minerals. At 46 cents a pound, this premium feed costs me $5.50 a day for the tbs that need to gain weight, and $4 for the tbs that are maintaining, and my easy keepers get by on $0.44-$1.32 a day. They all look great.

The Renew Gold alone costs $1.30/day.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8458457]
I understand what you are saying, but when a feeding program starts with 15-20 lbs of hay/pasture a day, that IS a natural, minimally processed feed program. And there isn’t any research supporting your comment about “increase in unhealthy side effects” of commercial feeds. In fact, we know so much more about equine nutrition and the commercial feeds have improved to reflect this advancement in knowledge. Yes, we are still learning, and commercial feeds will continue to improve as we learn. But as they are now, I feel there are some really great products out there.[/QUOTE]

I think we’re having a semantic dispute. I’m in no way trying to bash commercial feeds, and I’m sorry if you’re getting that impression. As I said (several times) in my earlier posts, I believe the advances in nutrition and feed are what allows our horses to have that show ring look without the show ring grooming and husbandry of days past.

But we do seem to disagree on the significance of a horse eating several pounds of processed feed. Yes, I understand horses should be eating ~2% of their body weight in forage, and that forage is generally not processed. But an average-sized riding horse eating 5lbs a day of a 1500 calorie/lb feed and 20lbs of a native grass hay is receiving roughly 30% of his calories from that processed feed. I don’t feel you can call that diet “minimally processed” even if he is getting most of his calories from hay. It appears you disagree, and I guess we’ll just have to leave it at that.

My statement about an “increase in unhealthy side effects” is merely an opinion and an observation. It’s also a statement I don’t think the research has caught up to yet. But it’s not an issue in horses alone: look at the number of food sensitivities from intolerance to severe allergies we are now seeing in humans, pets, and horses. I think there is a lot of hysteria and bad science right now when it comes to food, but I also think the underlying concern is warranted. I myself am torn when it comes to the subject, which is why I may come across as though I’m contradicting myself.

[JB]

IMHO it’s more important to look at the volume and weight of food fed, vs calories, when seeing how processed it is. 5lb at 1500 cal/lb might be 30% of the total calories, but it’s only 1/4 of the weight, and less than that of the volume.

1lb of oil is 2c which is pretty processed, and 4000 cal, so if he’s also eating 20lb of hay for 16,000 cal, the oil is not much in the way of weight or volume, and 1/5 of the calories.

[Texarkana]

See, I disagree that weight/volume is “more important.” I strongly feel you need to consider all of the above: volume, weight/density, caloric density, and nutrient contribution to truly evaluate what the horse is receiving and from where. I was giving just one example. But I truthfully don’t care at this point-- I’m not sure why these threads need to involve 100 rounds of semantic disputes just so folks can get the last say and feel they are right (myself included).

[piedmontfields]

First of all, I’d like to thank folks on this thread for thinking out loud and being open to learning about different experiences.

FWIW, I am currently feeding a so-called whole food diet (hay plus whole ingredients). However, I don’t think think is the only diet that can work well for my horse (or others); it is what my barn does so I make it work. In general, my horse is doing well on this diet. BUT—it has taken some tweaking and trial to get a good mix and feed level.

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8459760]
OK, but IMHO you are feeding a lot of hard feed - 10 lbs, plus you add the Renew Gold [/QUOTE]

I have fed up to 10 lbs of whole ingredients before in winter (alfalfa and timothy pellets, rice bran, coolstance), although I’m currently at about 7 lbs per day, divided into 3 meals. This is in addition to about 25 lbs of hay per day. BTW, Renew Gold is a combination of rice bran, flax and coolstance. It is a mix, not a “highly processed food” in my opinion. It is not even processed into another form (pellet).

A few thoughts for the thread:

-Some horses need a shocking amount of feed, including a large amount of hay to be at an adequate weight. Some horses require very little. Although my mare is an Iberian warmblood, she requires quite a bit of food compared to the typical thrifty Lusitano/Andalusian. There are horses in my barn doing very well on a whole foods diet who get way less than a 1lb of whole ingredients a day (plus less hay than my mare).

-Consequently, a whole foods diet is not necessarily cheaper than a commercial feed diet, and for a horse with special needs (mine, for ex., who is on a PSSM diet) it is actually more costly.

-Hay is the foundation of any good diet. I think in many boarding situations, getting good, plentiful hay fed in an appropriate way (multiple feedings or out of a slow feeder) is the biggest challenge.

-I do think if switching to a whole food diet, vit/min needs must be assessed/addressed. Many horses have had a good chunk of their vit/min needs covered by commercial processed feeds, so if you take that away, you must provide an alternative source.

[knic13]

An important note to keep in mind is that one of the reasons that feed is processed is to increase digestibility.

Depending on the ingredients utilized in a complete feed compared to a whole foods diet, a simple substitution of ingredients formulated to achieve the same nutrient profile (calories, starch, crude protein, etc) may not be appropriate.

You may be providing the same gross number of calories (although it sounds like the switch to the whole foods diet decreased total kcal offered per day); however, taking differences in digestibility and feed passage rates between diets you are likely to find calories (or insert other nutrients here) that are actually available for maintenance and work (growth, physical activity, reproduction, etc) may have actually decreased. The method for determining calories does not take into account the physiological availability of the gross calories.

I don’t quite understand the focus on whole foods (just my personal opinion and not an attack on the OP) and would be interested in the credentials of your nutritionist.

I personally do not have any problem with feeding processed feeds to my horses and simply focus on developing a forage based program with added grain when necessary to meet the nutritional requirements for stage of life and work.

For reference, my 3 yr OTTB has free choice grass hay offered overnight in his stall and hay offered out of a slow-ish feeder through the day (to slow down his hoover pasture mate) so there is always hay available. The balance of his diet is made up of pro-force fuel fed at label recommendation for his size and work level supplemented with soaked alfalfa pellets and beet pulp to add additional calories. He also receives a trace mineral supplement because we have high soil and water iron levels, which reduces the bioavailability of the trace minerals. He continues to slowly put on weight, even in the frigid temps we have had recently, and between the high fat feed and regular grooming his coat has a lovely bloom to it.

In contrast, I have an older easy keeper who receives the same amount of hay as the 3 yr old (actually more because he eats more than his half out on pasture) but maintains weight nicely on a Nurtrena SafeChoice Maintenance fed at label directions plus the trace mineral supplement.

There are a lot of combinations of feedstuffs that can be utilized to meet horses nutrient requirements. Feedstuffs are not inherently good or bad (processed or not), they simply need to be utilized appropriately in balance with other complementary feedstuffs and supplements to meet requirements.

[Scribbler]

I am still interested to hear back from the OP. I suspect that the main problem really is that they are not feeding enough hay.

The OP says that they have a number of horses of different sizes and needs, such that they are tailoring their menus to every different horse. That makes it surprising that all the horses are losing significant weight on this diet.

I would totally understand it if they said, for instance, “the pony and the Paint are thriving on this diet, but we have a young OTTB that really seems to need an extra boost.” In that case, the solution probably would be: get in a cool-cal or high-oil feed, or a bunch of vegetable oil, for the athlete.

But having (a) such a variety of horses that they can’t specify a typical menu and (b) having all the horses lose weight, suggests that they are not feeding enough hay.

BTW, feeding basic ingredients is significantly cheaper than feeding a manufactured feed where I live.

The price per pound in cents is: hay 21, oats 23.5, beet pulp 27, alfalfa cubes 28,5. And I buy an extruded feed, to use as treats for clicker trick training. The price is 44 cents a pound. That seems about typical; it is a “maintenance” feed I chose for the size of the kibbles.

I do blow my savings, though, by feeding a vitamin/mineral supplement that costs $45 a month.

None of the American brands under discussion here are sold where I live, though we have a full range of manufactured feeds from several local mills.

It was interesting to read in a previous thread that manufactured feeds in the USA could be cheaper than whole oats, and that whole oats were even hard to find in some places. I would imagine that the feed industry, like the human food industry, benefits from the huge volume of scale in US agriculture, and the subsidies for corn and soy that lower their costs. Also, it turns out that the ethanol fuel industry is a bit producer of distiller’s grain byproducts (who knew?) and so there would be more and more of this available.

When I was Googling around, much of the information and research on feeds focuses on cattle: how to get milk production up, and meat pounds on. But cattle have much shorter lives than horses do, and much lower standards for soundness. If you are going to butcher at two years, you aren’t worried about whether you will need to inject the hocks at 17.