Commercial Feed vs. Non-Commercial Feed? (That is the question.)

[Scribbler]

@knic13;8460068

An important note to keep in mind is that one of the reasons that feed is processed is to increase digestibility.

This is very true. But the trade-off to processing for digestibility is that, in the case of carbohydrates, better digestibility can raise the gylcemic index. That is, the faster the carbs are absorbed in the small intestine, the faster and higher the blood sugar peaks.

I realize “glycemic index” is the flavour of the week for human weight-loss pop diets,or at least it was last year (I think we are entering the year of the Gut Biome now). And it’s important to keep in mind that the effect of blood sugar depends on the person’s overall health and activity level. Marathon runners now have little packs of energy gels that are almost pure sugar and make the blood sugar peak immediately, but they burn it all off.

The idea behind the interest in glycemic index was the notion that if you repeatedly eat high-GI foods that make your blood sugar and insulin rise, you eventually burn out your body’s ability to process blood sugar and/or insulin, and you get fat and pre-diabetic. I am not sure how true this is of people without an underlying metabolic predisposition, but on the other hand all human nutritionists agree in trying to steer you towards minimally processed foods, cooking from scratch, no soda, etc.

With horses, yes, you do want to increase digestibility. For instance, you don’t want to see whole oats going right through the horse and out again to feed the sparrows. So you can crimp your whole oats, or soak them in a mash. Minimally processing, in other words. But what is the effect if the oats were rolled, powdered, steamed, cooked? Would they then become too easily digestible, that is make the horse’s blood sugar spike too fast, like feeding cookies or soda to a person?

I know that the extruded kibble I am currently using for treats is as easy-crunch and “baked” as a dog food. I don’t, however, feed very much of it (nowhere near the recommended 5 to 10 pounds a day on the label ). There is no NSC stated on the label. It looks very easy to digest.

Anyhow, glycemic index matters because so many horses are now turning up with “metabolic disorder” and laminitis as they age. We know that in humans, the adult diabetes/pre-diabetes range of ailments are generally “lifestyle diseases,” created by problems with diet and exercise, and very hard to manage once they exist. And in horses, “lifestyle diseases” are called “horse management problems,” because we control their lifestyles.

In fact, I’m watching (from a polite distance) a slow-motion train wreck with a friend’s senior pony, who has all the classic Cushings symptoms (weirdly obese, lactating, dished and ouchy front feet), though in this case there’s no commercial feed involved — more a belief that local first cut grass is “good low-nutrition pony hay” even when it tests out at 25 % NSC (to do her credit, she is now feeding a better quality hay). So maybe not really related to this conversation about what concentrates to feed, but just that these problems develop over time, and horses have long lives in which to develop them.

[JB]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8459882]
See, I disagree that weight/volume is “more important.” I strongly feel you need to consider all of the above: volume, weight/density, caloric density, and nutrient contribution to truly evaluate what the horse is receiving and from where. I was giving just one example. But I truthfully don’t care at this point-- I’m not sure why these threads need to involve 100 rounds of semantic disputes just so folks can get the last say and feel they are right (myself included).[/QUOTE]
You’re right, it’s more than just about calories, or weight, or volume, it’s about everything I guess that’s just what I was getting at, being about the total picture as opposed to just picking one of those to determine how much processing there was.

[knic13]

@Scribbler;8460226

This is very true. But the trade-off to processing for digestibility is that, in the case of carbohydrates, better digestibility can raise the gylcemic index. That is, the faster the carbs are absorbed in the small intestine, the faster and higher the blood sugar peaks.

I realize “glycemic index” is the flavour of the week for human weight-loss pop diets,or at least it was last year (I think we are entering the year of the Gut Biome now). And it’s important to keep in mind that the effect of blood sugar depends on the person’s overall health and activity level. Marathon runners now have little packs of energy gels that are almost pure sugar and make the blood sugar peak immediately, but they burn it all off.

The idea behind the interest in glycemic index was the notion that if you repeatedly eat high-GI foods that make your blood sugar and insulin rise, you eventually burn out your body’s ability to process blood sugar and/or insulin, and you get fat and pre-diabetic. I am not sure how true this is of people without an underlying metabolic predisposition, but on the other hand all human nutritionists agree in trying to steer you towards minimally processed foods, cooking from scratch, no soda, etc.

With horses, yes, you do want to increase digestibility. For instance, you don’t want to see whole oats going right through the horse and out again to feed the sparrows. So you can crimp your whole oats, or soak them in a mash. Minimally processing, in other words. But what is the effect if the oats were rolled, powdered, steamed, cooked? Would they then become too easily digestible, that is make the horse’s blood sugar spike too fast, like feeding cookies or soda to a person?

Absolutely true and again this goes back to balancing a ration with multiple ingredients. I was more so mentioning this to put the calorie discussion that was mentioned further up in the thread in perspective.

I certainly wouldn’t suggest feeding a diet entirely composed of high starch processed feeds.

However, feeding processed grains allows us to feed less total grain. Of course some care needs to be taken that we don’t overload highly digestible starch.

The diet OP is feeding is below and although we don’t have inclusion rates available it was stated that horses are receiving a maximum of 6 lbs per day. With limited hay it would be challenging to meet nutrient requirements with the base CHO source coming from un-processed oats.

Fat inclusion is great to meet calorie requirements but only up to a point. There are biological inefficiencies that will come into play when providing a high proportion of energy from fat and hindgut fiber fermentation can be depressed by high levels of fat escaping enzymatic digestion in the small intestine, thus depressing VFA production in the hindgut and ultimately efficiency of energy available from fiber.

Caveat on entire discussion being that this is all theoretical without knowing the inclusion rates of each ingredient.

Currently we are feeding a base of alfalfa pellets and whole oats, together with Renew Gold (rice bran/coconut meal) as the fat source, fresh ground flax, and a vit/min supplement dosed out based on size of horse or pony. We have also exchanged the beet pulp for alfalfa cubes with the PM ration. Overall far more nutrition, fiber, and roughage in the diet, which is a great thing since we have virtually no pasture. I’m just having a hard time processing how their various ailments have improved, yet their overall condition is now suffering.

As I stated before, there are many combinations of feedstuffs to meet a horses requirements. Based on the OPs description the current program is not sufficient.

Nutrition is a nuanced science and all of the characteristics of the multiple feedstuffs comprising a horses diet must be taken into consideration and balanced accordingly.

I’m certainly not saying that everything you buy out of a bag is going to be better than buying individual ingredients but processing vs. no processing is not what makes a program good or bad. Rather it simply comes down to balancing the attributes of various feedstuffs while being mindful of the constraints of the digestive system.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8460226]
This is very true. But the trade-off to processing for digestibility is that, in the case of carbohydrates, better digestibility can raise the gylcemic index. That is, the faster the carbs are absorbed in the small intestine, the faster and higher the blood sugar peaks.

I realize “glycemic index” is the flavour of the week for human weight-loss pop diets,or at least it was last year (I think we are entering the year of the Gut Biome now). And it’s important to keep in mind that the effect of blood sugar depends on the person’s overall health and activity level. Marathon runners now have little packs of energy gels that are almost pure sugar and make the blood sugar peak immediately, but they burn it all off.

The idea behind the interest in glycemic index was the notion that if you repeatedly eat high-GI foods that make your blood sugar and insulin rise, you eventually burn out your body’s ability to process blood sugar and/or insulin, and you get fat and pre-diabetic. I am not sure how true this is of people without an underlying metabolic predisposition, but on the other hand all human nutritionists agree in trying to steer you towards minimally processed foods, cooking from scratch, no soda, etc.

With horses, yes, you do want to increase digestibility. For instance, you don’t want to see whole oats going right through the horse and out again to feed the sparrows. So you can crimp your whole oats, or soak them in a mash. Minimally processing, in other words. But what is the effect if the oats were rolled, powdered, steamed, cooked? Would they then become too easily digestible, that is make the horse’s blood sugar spike too fast, like feeding cookies or soda to a person?

I know that the extruded kibble I am currently using for treats is as easy-crunch and “baked” as a dog food. I don’t, however, feed very much of it (nowhere near the recommended 5 to 10 pounds a day on the label ). There is no NSC stated on the label. It looks very easy to digest.

Anyhow, glycemic index matters because so many horses are now turning up with “metabolic disorder” and laminitis as they age. We know that in humans, the adult diabetes/pre-diabetes range of ailments are generally “lifestyle diseases,” created by problems with diet and exercise, and very hard to manage once they exist. And in horses, “lifestyle diseases” are called “horse management problems,” because we control their lifestyles.

In fact, I’m watching (from a polite distance) a slow-motion train wreck with a friend’s senior pony, who has all the classic Cushings symptoms (weirdly obese, lactating, dished and ouchy front feet), though in this case there’s no commercial feed involved — more a belief that local first cut grass is “good low-nutrition pony hay” even when it tests out at 25 % NSC (to do her credit, she is now feeding a better quality hay). So maybe not really related to this conversation about what concentrates to feed, but just that these problems develop over time, and horses have long lives in which to develop them.[/QUOTE]

Overall, good points, but you shot your own argument about processed vs. non-processed foods in the foot with the last part about high NSC hay…

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8460460]
Overall, good points, but you shot your own argument about processed vs. non-processed foods in the foot with the last part about high NSC hay…:D[/QUOTE]

Well, there’s more than one way to founder a horse and natural doesn’t trump stupid, unfortunately.

[Brian]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8460226]
…In fact, I’m watching (from a polite distance) a slow-motion train wreck with a friend’s senior pony, who has all the classic Cushings symptoms (weirdly obese, lactating, dished and ouchy front feet), though in this case there’s no commercial feed involved — more a belief that local first cut grass is “good low-nutrition pony hay” even when it tests out at 25 % NSC (to do her credit, she is now feeding a better quality hay). So maybe not really related to this conversation about what concentrates to feed, but just that these problems develop over time, and horses have long lives in which to develop them.[/QUOTE]

Hay that tests at 25% NSC is pretty unlikely. It sounds more like 25% NFC. NFC is Nonfibrous Carbohydrate and is not the same as NSC. NFC is a calculated value and is almost always higher than NSC. In a forage analysis, NFC may be as much as 3x’s that of actual NSC, where as with grains, it will be closer to 1:1.

[Obsidian_Fire]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8459170]
Probably an uptick in laminitis cases.[/QUOTE]

LOL!! :lol:

Yes I did consider that before I posted…but…<big sigh>… it was still a nice daydream!!

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Brian;8460907]
Hay that tests at 25% NSC is pretty unlikely. It sounds more like 25% NFC. NFC is Nonfibrous Carbohydrate and is not the same as NSC. NFC is a calculated value and is almost always higher than NSC. In a forage analysis, NFC may be as much as 3x’s that of actual NSC, where as with grains, it will be closer to 1:1.[/QUOTE]

The hay had 24.1 % WSC (water soluble carbs) and 1 % starch. NSC is WSC plus starch. NSC is non-structural carbs.

The NFC in this hay was 31.2 %

NSC over 20 % is apparently typical of our local grass hays. The nutritionist attached to the hay analysis said he sees local grass hays of up to 30 % NSC.

This is due to our local weather patterns, rain, etc. First cut is typically higher than second cut, despite being woodier and looking like “good pony hay.” First cut has much lower protein. Both cuts are low in minerals: all that rain.

http://gettyequinenutrition.biz/Library/Howtointerpretyourhayanalysisreport.htm

[Brian]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8461673]
The hay had 24.1 % WSC (water soluble carbs) and 1 % starch. NSC is WSC plus starch. NSC is non-structural carbs.

The NFC in this hay was 31.2 %

NSC over 20 % is apparently typical of our local grass hays. The nutritionist attached to the hay analysis said he sees local grass hays of up to 30 % NSC.

This is due to our local weather patterns, rain, etc. First cut is typically higher than second cut, despite being woodier and looking like “good pony hay.” First cut has much lower protein. Both cuts are low in minerals: all that rain.

http://gettyequinenutrition.biz/Library/Howtointerpretyourhayanalysisreport.htm[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure we live in different parts of the country. I’ve never seen grass hay test that high. Here’s a link to Equi-Analytical grass forage averages for a 14 year period.

http://equi-analytical.com/interactive-common-feed-profile/

Just out of curiosity, What variety grass is this?

[JB]

I’m dying to know too - that’s insane! It sounds valid though, given the description. That’s just crazy.

[Scribbler]

PNW on the coast. Hay marketed as “local,” meaning it is whatever grows in the pasture. Nobody as far as I know grows any “name brand” or “name species” here in this climate belt. The real timothy, alfalfa, orchardgrass, etc., are grown in the interior, which is higher, drier, hotter summer and colder winter (ranchland or irrigated desert). Local hay fields are under pressure from urban development, so I don’t think anyone is putting a lot of resources into improving their fields, just harvesting what comes up.

This particular field has some timothy in it, as you can see the heads. No idea what the other grass species are. He grows in an area of I think sandy, well drained soil (but would need to actually see the farm to know what pocket he is in).

I also tested a load of local hay that same summer that was said to be “red top,” and the WSC was 19.3 %, the NSC 21.2 % This was grown in a much wetter, black-soil area.

I think that the high sugar content is due to the growing conditions. Our grass will start growing in February, but hay can’t usually be cut until June, because the pastures are too wet for machinery. So by the time first cut hay is being made, the pasture grass can be five feet tall and very woody. That said, the second cut off the same field was almost as high in NSC, but much higher in protein. I understand that the farmer doesn’t fertilize, and might not be as much of a lifelong hay expert as the “red top” hay grower.

On the “safergrass” website I’ve read that sugar levels can be insanely high in New Zealand pastures because of the long grey mild springs, and probably Vancouver has a climate a lot like New Zealand.

1st cut: NSC 25.1%, NFC 31.2%, protein 5.9 %
2nd cut: NSC 24.3%, NFC 27.9%, protein 10.2%

The “red top” local from a different farmer was:

NSC 21.2 %, NFC 29.3 %, protein 12.9 %

Since I don’t get to see the fields I don’t really know what is growing in them other than what I can see in the bales. I do know that common “volunteer” grasses around here are Reed Canary Grass (which is non-native and invasive in wetlands), orchard grass, red top, some bromes, and rye grass (I’m not sure if this is Perennial Ryegrass or just immature rye wheat). Maresy and I do a lot of grass walks on summer evenings under the powerline right of way where Reed Canary Grass is dominant, and apparently quite palatable until it is seven feet tall and solid lignin in late summer. I picked a bunch of flower heads one May planning on identifying everything else but never found the right guide book to identify them all.

BTW, “local” hay has been the affordable choice for most horses around here since forever, and most of them do OK on it, if the other factors are OK.

I did these tests on summer 2014 hay. I didn’t test the summer 2015 hay. Because of the drought, the 2105 first cut came in earlier, finer, greener. The 2nd cut crop was smaller than expected, and the grass presumably stressed. I would say the 2015 crop is probably higher calorie than the 2014 crop, so higher sugar?

Horse gets her hay weighed; definitely not free choice. She is an easy keeper, but her weight is good now, and she’s never had any metabolic issues, laminitis, colic, etc.

[Losgelassenheit]

Update: Going back to whole food

Hi all. Wow, has this discussion taken off. Last time I checked, the thread was only at 3 pages. I haven’t gotten caught up just yet but wanted to sign on with an update.

A very lengthy story short, we went back to Purina, who seemed most knowledgable and eager to assist with our issues. After repeated assurance that it couldn’t possibly have been anything in the feed, we picked up one bag of each feed we’d used in the past (Ultium and Strategy), and began the switch yesterday morning. My flame suit is on for what I’m about to say, but I will just say that I know our horses well enough, just as I’m sure most of you know your own. Three feedings in, two of our “problem children”, who have arthritis issues that will pop up the instant something is out of whack, came up lame. I chalked the first one up to “maybe we just worked too hard yesterday”, but when the vacationing pony who spent his day doing nothing more than eating hay in his turnout was suddenly head bobbing, I took notice.

It was probably my mistake to tell the rep about this when they arrived, as the consult immediately shifted from a feed program to all of the so-called conformation/feet/angles/anything-but-the-feed that could be blamed for why they could both suddenly be lame. I’m sorry, but I have a flax allergy, and with the 8-10 tiny seeds that were accidentally stuck to my sandwich bread this afternoon, the tremendous stomach upset I have right now is enough to say, uh, yes it is possible to be affected by something ingested if one is sensitive to it.

Needless to say, we will be going back to the whole food diet and looking for additional sources of fat. I must say though, it’s amazing given the combination of apparently horrendous physical issues together with the unfortified, crappy feed program, and yet they were all SOUND and healthy, fat issue aside. Go figure.

Also, for those questioning the amount of hay, we weigh all of our portions, and went through each horse’s ration with the rep who actually praised the quantity of hay we are feeding.

One more learning experience, I suppose.

[Scribbler]

I’d still say, if the horses are underweight, feed as much hay as they will eat until they fatten up. If that doesn’t work, then you can consider whether you need high-fat supplements of some sort. But there is no down side to feeding maximum hay. Give it a try for a month.

[JB]

Why are you looking to add more fat, when it’s protein and calories that really build toplines, both of which appear to be lower in the new diet? I understand adding fat later for that last bit of oomph, especially if/when the forage and concentrates are approaching a point where more isn’t reasonable, but it’s not the best thing to start adding early on IMHO. Weight and topline should be addressed with forage first, with a strong eye towards maximal nutrition.

How much hay are these horses getting, as a % of their body weight? If they lost weight, feed more hay - don’t even bother weighing it, just keep giving it to them until they at leaving a bit.

[Losgelassenheit]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8462322]
I’d still say, if the horses are underweight, feed as much hay as they will eat until they fatten up. If that doesn’t work, then you can consider whether you need high-fat supplements of some sort. But there is no down side to feeding maximum hay. Give it a try for a month.[/QUOTE]

Will do, Scribbler. Thanks We did discuss that even though our portions were providing them with closer to 2.5% bodyweight in hay (not counting the cubes/pellets in the ration), there is still not a scrap to be found when their hay is tossed on the ground. In a net, their rations will span all day, but on occasion when they get their hay outside or loose for a change, it’s gone within 1.5-2 hours and they’re looking for more. Rep suggested that we keep it in front of them non-stop and rather than restrict with slow feed nets, just let them eat. So, probably starting there in addition to finding an additional fat source, which right now is looking like either Coconut oil or Hemp seed oil.

[Palm_Beach]

Tex - from the website "Renew Gold™ advances the concept of concentrated nutritional support for your horses feeding program with the use of three sources of natural Non-GMO Ingredients vegetable oils, a unique profile of high quality protein, and healthy digestible fiber. The combination of High Fat Stabilized Rice Bran, CoolStance® Coconut Meal and Flax provides a uniquely efficient formulation that is lower in starch than grains or sweet feed.

Using a base of food grade Stabilized Rice Bran we fortify Renew Gold with CoolStance® coconut meal and Flax. Digestive efficiency is then enhanced with the addition of Fermented Yeast Culture. This offers horse owners the opportunity to utilize the well proven nutritional advantages of Stabilized Rice Bran in an even more effective, advanced formulation." Stabilized rice bran is no more a whole food than wheat middlings or soybean hulls. Cocounut meal is no more a whole food than dehydrated alfalfa. What are the protein and fiber sources and in what form are they? The product sounds pretty processed to me.

I think knic13 hit the nail on the head. As many articles in peer reviewed journals end, “more research is needed on the topic.”

And as Scribbler noted, feeding a whole grain like oats, etc is cheaper than a bag of commercial feed, but then you blow your budget with a vit/min supplement to fill in the gaps. And you spend a lot of time figuring out how to balance the diet for horses at each end of the spectrum.

Maybe I’m lazy, but I trust the equine nutrition experts who are working for the feed companies and not afraid to put everything about their products online for owners/managers to read.

[Texarkana]

Palm Beach- why do you keep dragging me back into this? I feel like you are trying to grind an axe (albeit politely) on a moot point. And I did not even once comment on the Renew Gold, as I agree with you, I find it ironic that the OP’s “whole food nutritionist” recommended it for a supposedly “whole food diet.”

Seriously, let it go. It’s okay to disagree with people on the internet.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8462874]
Palm Beach- why do you keep dragging me back into this? I feel like you are trying to grind an axe (albeit politely) on a moot point. And I did not even once comment on the Renew Gold, as I agree with you, I find it ironic that the OP’s “whole food nutritionist” recommended it for a supposedly “whole food diet.”

Seriously, let it go. It’s okay to disagree with people on the internet.[/QUOTE]

Sorry! Just sloppy reading on my part.

[Scribbler]

A barn friend of mine has been hired to start up a new, stand-alone, SPCA horse facility for the region, just in time for the winter season. She’s pretty busy!

The local farmer’s co-op feed store/ feed mill is helping out by sending their nutritionist consultant and selling the SPCA feed at wholesale, which is terrific.

His feeding plan for the horses is based on good alfalfa and timothy hay, alfalfa cubes, a soy hull/beet pellet mix, and a ration balancer. He’s drawn up weekly feeding plans for the various horses, since you can’t just stuff a starving horse. The horses are doing well on this.

None of these horses are currently in work.

I found this interesting, as there are no end of commercial feeds manufactured by this mill. But he has gone with affordable basics.

My friend says the nutritionist is really enthusiastic about the project, and she has learned a lot from him. I’m pretty sure he’s the same person I talked to about my hay analysis last year, and he was very helpful.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=Losgelassenheit;8462449]
Will do, Scribbler. Thanks We did discuss that even though our portions were providing them with closer to 2.5% bodyweight in hay (not counting the cubes/pellets in the ration), there is still not a scrap to be found when their hay is tossed on the ground. In a net, their rations will span all day, but on occasion when they get their hay outside or loose for a change, it’s gone within 1.5-2 hours and they’re looking for more. Rep suggested that we keep it in front of them non-stop and rather than restrict with slow feed nets, just let them eat. So, probably starting there in addition to finding an additional fat source, which right now is looking like either Coconut oil or Hemp seed oil.[/QUOTE]

Good to hear! Do you actually weigh your hay, or just guesstimate? I have a “fish scale” (like a “luggage scale”) in my loft and weigh everything in a big blue IKEA bag, but then I only have one horse. I do find that even within one bale, the flakes can vary a lot in weight. Also, I’ve never had a load of hay where the bales were really the advertised weight.

I would say, change up one thing at a time. Do the free choice hay for a few weeks, and see if that is enough. Then you can think about the next step, if needed. Otherwise you will never know what worked.

Why coconut oil? I realize coconut oil is having a moment as a human food, but I’m old enough to remember when coconut oil (and palm oil) was considered a health risk because it is so extremely high in saturated fat, higher than almost everything else. This would have been after the junk food explosion of the 1970s, when manufacturers were starting to use cheap tropical oils for deep frying.

This was before they invented trans-fats, which are apparently way worse than mere saturated fat. Now I realize that the link between saturated fats and heart diseases may not be as clearcut as originally thought, but the idea of “bad tropical oils” has stuck with me.

The other aspect of oils that you might want to consider is the ratio of omega 3 to omega 6, especially since you are concerned about inflammation in your horses. Apparently too much omega 6 can increase inflammation. Omega 3 are said to decrease inflammation.

Since both omega 3 and 6 are polyunsaturated fats, there aren’t much of either in coconut oil, which is mostly saturated.

Perhaps your horses are reacting to an oil component of the commercial feed?

Anyhow, here are some links. The egg promotion website is useful just for the table showing the composition of various fats.

http://www.aneggadayisok.ca/managing-cholesterol/healthy-tips-for-managing-cholesterol/healthy-fats-vs-unhealthy-fats/

Dr. Julia Getty’s website has basic nutrition advice. I bought her book “Feed Your Horse Like a Horse” when I did the online Coursera on horse nutrition, and have found it a very useful reference:

http://gettyequinenutrition.biz/Library/FatisFat.htm

As far as hemp oil, there are older threads on COTH about this. I haven’t yet seen a really credible account of it for use on horses, though presumably there is one out there. It does seem to have a better omega 3;6 ration than most other oils.

Of course the old standby for getting fat and shine on a horse is flaxseed, which has a very good ration of omega 3:6. I can’t remember if you are already feeding this or not? I personally like the idea that the oil in flaxseed is bound up in the seed. It seems more like something a horse might browse on in the wild. I don’t know about feeding cups of actual oil to a horse. I know people do, though.

I would worry it might have a laxative effect, and rush everything through the gut just a little too fast, which would decrease the nutrition absorbed.