Complicated Horse Pricing

[carrotgirl]

Hi all! I am looking at an imported warmblood and I’m wondering if I am getting told the right price for it. This would be my first horse so I’m not familiar with values, and this one is a complicated guy.

He jumped 1.20’s wonderfully in europe, however, in the states, his USEF is all DNP’s. There are a few shows he did well, but 90% of it are pretty bad. Basically, he would jump a good amount of the course until he would eventually refuse. The seller says this is due to bad rider and horse chemistry. Supposedly, both the rider training/showing him and the horse hated each other. The rider was very strict which made the horse fall apart under pressure.

Catch is, I have been leasing him for a few months now and he has been an angel with me. I’m unfortunately not a good enough rider to show yet, but I plan to in the future. I have ridden him many times and also have jumped him many times in different combination types. He hasn’t refused once, even with my bad striding, unbalanced seat, confusing cues, etc. I know he’s not being drugged. He’s wonderful on the ground as well. If I didn’t know about his record, I would say he’s the perfect guy for me.

Horse was quoted to me for $50k. Can a horse with a record like this still hold value like that? We are pending the PPE. I really just want to get a second opinion if this is a normal price.

[fanfayre]

I have no idea whether it’s a good price or not; it’s too rich a price for me whether it can jump the moon every time or won’t go over cavalletti or do 20 1-tempis in a row.
However, a horse is only worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay on the day the seller MUST sell the horse. If you don’t think it’s a good price yourself, make an offer of what YOU think is reasonable

[GraceLikeRain]

Have you taken this horse off property to a high pressure environment where it warmed up in a group ring and then had to go jump a full course of new fences? Mr rock steady may very quickly become a Mr did you dirty. If showing is important and you can’t replicate that environment before buying I wouldn’t pay more than you’re comfortable eating and/or the horses current value as a dressage prospect with zero show record for dressage.

[NaturallyHappy]

I’d be curious as to how he was going at home with the rider who hated him…and who said horse also disliked.

[luvmyhackney]

Take horse to an offsite clinic. or have him shown by someone else, like a catch ride at an away show.

[carrotgirl]

Good question! now that i think about it, he was also very spooky with the previous rider even at home. I knew this horse for a year before I started leasing it. His training sessions were never pretty. He would spook or refuse and they would, try to make the horse obey with only temporary success

[carrotgirl]

No i have not, this is a good idea

[Madison]

How old is the horse? What height were they showing it here in the US? Pro or amateur showing it? All of those things will affect whether he is overpriced for the quirk (or physical issue), or whether the price already reflects that. Also, what height do you want to do with him? That affects what you would have to pay for an alternative option, so that’s a factor too.

[BellaFortuna]

Agreed. What are your goals with him too OP? If you plan or might want to take him to shows, I would have him at least attend an off-site clinic or go to the show. Unless the sale price is an amount you don’t mind eating, with that record and background, I would want to know the horse can do the job intended or show indicators of being able to (ie can handle the pressure of the show ring with a different rider or tolerate mistakes). Ultimately it’s about your tolerance for risk (and budget) and suitability for the job. Is the seller your trainer? If not, I would be curious to know their perspective.

[carrotgirl]

10 years old, showed 1.20-1.10 by an amateur. Personally I’d like a horse to take me up the ranks, and jump as high as my andrenaline will allow, maybe a meter. So far I haven’t had any anxieties.

[carrotgirl]

Luckily I was able to find his videos from europe. It was an “amateur” girl that showed him there also. He jumped great with about 30 show videos. Yes, the seller is my trainer. The off-site idea is great!

[OverandOnward]

I don’t know where you are located … in a lot of horsey America right now, that would be a very fair price IF the horse were going right now, in the show ring, as he did in Europe. If he were proving out in the same way he did in Europe where he is now, he might be a good bit pricier.

Horse prices in the U.S. are much, much higher than they were 5 or 10 years ago – but for genuine, proven show horses. In higher-level show areas.

I am surprised that the trainer selling him allowed him to accumulate such a bad show ring record in the U.S. Blaming it on the riding raises more questions than it answers. Bad riding with refusals can ruin a horse’s confidence. Can install a ‘quit’ factor that erupts at any time. That may be why he is not priced higher – the question marks and unknowns that have accumulated in the U.S. Curious as to how the trainer is marketing him, and how much interest is being shown by the horse-buying public.

Hate to put it this way, but the most recent behavior and results in the show ring are the best predictor of the future in the show ring. This horse is no longer the horse that he was in Europe. It happens.

Basically, as is, on his most current U.S. show record which is what is relevant now, this horse is a big question mark and a big risk for any purchaser who wants to do more than you are successfully doing with him right now, in lessons and leasing. If you buy this horse, what you are doing now is the horse you are buying.

Will he return to his European form? There are so many moving factors in that future.

[paw]

@OverandOnward

If you buy this horse, what you are doing now is the horse you are buying.

Frankly, I think this is the most you can rely on. There might be issues that surface if you jump higher, or it really could be a mismatch with the prior rider. Either way, not sure I’d spend $50k on this one at this point. Maybe $20k, if he’s going well for you at your current level.

[cheektwocheek]

Does he have a clean change? Is he ammy friendly? Is he attractive enough to show at a WEF type venue? Many horses do many different things with different riders. I’d make sure he had a PPE and his Microchip & Passport matched before even thinking about it. 50k is a fair and average price for this type of horse in my opinion.

[GraceLikeRain]

@carrotgirl

Yes, the seller is my trainer

So is your trainer is selling him on consignment for a bad client who couldn’t get him around?

How does he go for her? If you encounter problems it’s important that another person can get on him and problem solve. If you’ve got a black beauty, I don’t mess with him so he jumps but only jumps for me, scenario that’s a recipe for disaster.

I think getting him off property is huge. Is he publicly listed or did your trainer just float you the number? She’s getting a commission and knows you are attached to the horse so you are at risk of getting an inflated asking price.

[carrotgirl]

He has auto changes. Ammy friendly… not sure what that means. I swear sometimes I ride like a monkey so maybe yes? He also knows a good amount of dressage moves. More than I know actually. He’s affectionate on the ground as well. I’ve overheard of unbiased boarders commenting on his attractiveness so I’d assume he can show at WEF, yet he hasn’t before. Not sure how well he (or I) would do, since the best horses/riders in the world are found there. PPE is in process

[carrotgirl]

I definitely would need assistance from someone who can problem solve, or for example jump the course with him before I do. This person has been on this horse again since I started leasing to problem solve, and I noticed they’ve replicated the softer way I ride, with success.

I will be moving shortly to a new state, and if I do buy this horse, I would take him with me. I imagined if I told my new trainer that he does better with a light hand than a heavy hand, he would do better. Also, for him mentally, to be in a new place with new people and experiences, it might refresh him!

Thankfully, they told me the number at the very beginning of my lease, when there was no emotional attachment yet. Not publicly listed, my trainer is more of a word-of-mouth seller. There have been people that were interested in buying him.

[carrotgirl]

Also, it is my trainers horse and they had an ammy ride/show him. He was bought to be a 1.50 horse prospect but obviously it didn’t work out.

[akhunterrider]

The biggest question for me here is: How much are YOU willing to pay for a horse that may never be successful in the show ring? Yes, he was successful in Europe, but he has not proven that he can be successful on US soil or successful with you. If your goal is to show, I think you need to consider that this may not be the horse you are able to successfully show on.

[findeight]

Trainer here has a substantial conflict of interest and stands to make lot of money off of you if you buy him. Your best interests are the last thing on her mind and she is trying to sell him to you, not find you an appropriate horse to enjoy and learn on.

What trainer thinks a bad behaving, spooky, 10 year old with a stopping habit is the best mount for an Ammy who is not ready to show yet? the only positive I see is the income stream for trainer you will provide.

Horse is nice to you because you are not yet advanced enough to put any pressure on him, you do not jump him seriously yet or even at all?

Something else that bothers me is if it is and has been trainers horse and the other riders is so bad??? Why did she keep the other rider on him? Even if leased, it is still hers, she is still the trainer and stopping is a terrible habit that gets more people hurt then any other. Really?

Based on what you have shared, you need a trainer to look out for you, not get you hurt.

Has this horse had a real vet work up? With imaging? Is it a vague “ vet says he’s fine” or
Is there a recent report with pictures? Is he on any meds if so what?

Often we fall into a relationship with a trainer that is like a bad boyfriend, when you do get out, you look back and wonder why it took you so long to see what everybody else saw all along. Just think about that.