Complicated Horse Pricing

[OverandOnward]

@carrotgirl

if you were wanting a horse just to flat around that’s one thing but knowing that they tried and he refused for two years straight jumping .

A huge red flag on this horse is that it seems to have deteriorated rapidly once it was in the US. That seemingly steep rate of decline could continue. Although we can’t know exactly what condition he was in while in Europe.

This is the thing about the vet and/or the trainer, exploring options for you to move forward with this horse, in spite of KS.

Neither seems to have experienced the reality of a KS long-term, in their barn, under their saddle. If you have a serious abnormality in the bones of your foot, can you expect to run a race on it – or even conduct daily life in the same normal way as people with two sound feet? No and no.

A horse with KS may not always be symptomatic. But when they are, the rider may find out when they mount and carefully ease down in the saddle. And the horse explodes in a buck that sends them airborne at height. To re-coin some popular phrases, the rider may experience an unscheduled rapid descent from a height of 16hh or 15hh, followed by the abrupt disassembly of various internal body parts on contact with the ground.

Just for what it is worth, it is not uncommon for experts, from vet medicine to the sellers of household fixtures such as dishwashers, HVAC, etc., not to know what it is like to live with it over the long-term. They know what the literature says, what one-time studies say. But their longer-term experience is limited to what they own themselves in their personal lives. And it may not be this.

When there is a lot of talk about KS rehab, targeted exercises, wet saddle blankets, etc. & so on, I always wonder if this is just technical talk from reading papers and websites. By someone who, no matter their expertise on the surgical end, has never managed a KS horse in their own barn over months and years. A horse that is sometimes sound and sometimes unexpectedly not. Someone who has never seen a KS horse suddenly violently pitch a rider in a highly dangerous situation. Sometimes seemingly out of the blue, as the horse may have been going ok for past rides, or even on this ride, until that moment.

[hj.eq.xc]

@carrotgirl

If they would put it in writing to guarantee my money back or trade me out for a different horse if this horse were to start refusing jumps with me.

even if you did this (but please don’t) you would not have a prayer of actually getting your money back. it’s hard enough getting stall damage deposits of a couple hundred back when moving barns, 50k no way

[OverandOnward]

@GraceLikeRain

your trainer has to be living under a literal rock to have this level of horse experience, be respected, and have not heard of kissing spines. I’m calling BS on either their actual skill set/background or their feigned ignorance.

This. Something is off. Speaking of FBI agents, if I were one, I’d turn over this trainer’s background with a long spade to try to figure out what is really going on here.

The trainer gets stranger and stranger with every new bit of information about her. We are crossing over into ‘weird’ territory with this trainer disconnect from hearing information re KS.

It is true that, way back in the day, navicular was the big boogeyman. KS was not even known. But honestly that is from back in the 1970’s, more or less. KS has been increasingly on the radar for years.

Even if a trainer who is now in their 60’s-70’s+ did get their principal background when it was all about navicular, there is absolutely no way they have been active in the professional horse world in the US (or Europe) during all the time since and be in ignorance about KS. General knowledge about KS is not necessarily deep, but people are aware that it may explain many things.

Plus other things …

The “horse hates the rider” and “bad mystical feelings between horse & rider (aka ‘bad chemistry’)” (all popular spoutings in the 70’s) is utter bullshit from any pro with experience over the last couple of decades, at least. Horses respond to the riding. Horses do not psychoanalyze a rider’s mind (something horses are not mentally equipped to do). Maybe this was the trainer’s woo-woo explanation to seeing the horse trying to unload the rider from the horse’s hurting back?

Any decent trainer should have an eye for a potential physical problem, even if the trainer doesn’t diagnose. A problem that isn’t part of riding skill and/or horse training.

A horse and rider ‘not getting along’ is coachable. The rider needs more and better skills, maybe the horse needs more training – that’s what makes the change. If the horse is just beyond a rider’s reachable skill level, or wanted skill level, the rider needs a different horse – not show after show after show with a bad outcome every time. And a frankly diversion-type explanation of “bad hateful mystical connection”.

The insistence that Europeans keep lower level riders on repetition of the most elementary basics for years – wait what? Many do progress riders much more slowly and thoroughly than do Americans. But not necessarily that slowly. Plus they tend to step it up somewhat once they are in the US and learn that they will be limiting their business by overdoing slow progress. Although in this case it may have been an excuse, on behalf of limiting the horse’s activity – but still, experienced students would call out the ‘how Europeans do it’ tale (as people did in this thread).

This trainer seems to have an endless line of highly retro bs she uses to cover all situations to her best possible advantage.

All of the above has been called out in this thread, by sundry people from various corners of this horse universe.

From what you have posted about your trainer, carrotgirl, she has to have stepped right out of a time machine, transitioning directly from the 1970’s to 2025.

I cannot imagine how isolated a supposed ‘professional’ must have been to escape the decades of time passage with so little change or growth in their extreme retro knowledge of horse health and of riding.

I do not know how the stuck-in-retro knowledge base can even be possible with a pro who is able to summon a European Grand Prix prospect at her will. Something that did not happen in the 1970’s in a non-elite trainer barn.

Something about this trainer is not clicking, in an increasingly weird way.

[Bogie]

@carrotgirl

I would pursue a different horse just sounds like too much of a risk, knowing this history. if you were wanting a horse just to flat around that’s one thing but knowing that they tried and he refused for two years straight jumping . I’m fearful you may get the same result. If you are anticipating jumping this horse, I’m not so sure this is a good idea. if you were getting the horse for free surgery may be worth the gamble but if you were paying much for it, I’m not sure I would feel comfortable making the purchase.

I’m not sure if you realize how unusual it is for a vet to make such a specific, written recommendation to not buy a horse. I’ve had vet tell me verbally that a horse might not be appropriate, but putting it in writing is a very strong statement.

[Madison]

Good point @Bogie - this is the professional equivalent of the vet screaming run, run for your life, don’t do it! This is far beyond what a vet will usually say about a PPE, which tells you their level of concern!!

[Bristol_Bay]

I know personally of three horses diagnosed with KS with different outcomes.

One was a young TB lesson horse sold to an unwitting student. He went around totally inverted and became increasingly difficult to ride. One day he reared straight up rather than go in the ring. That’s when he was examined and the KS was diagnosed. He was retired, probably still alive eating up dollars.

A friend of mine has blogged about her KS horse. The blog is called Saddle Seeks Horse. She had to make some radical changes in how she kept him, sending him to a place that had pasture board. (This is in Southern California where such places are rare). After a lay up, he went back to work and is still happily going around. He lives in a barn stall now but has lots of turnout.

The third is the beloved TB in my profile picture. He was diagnosed probably five years from when he had to be retired for other reasons. He had back injections just twice and they helped keep him comfortable. His only symptom had been reluctance to move out, like a horse in an ill-fitting saddle. I did have to change the saddle, but he was still amazing to ride even with the KS.

Bottom line is that every horse is different. Why not treat him and if the injections do him good, see if you can continue with an off-site lease? Back injections are cheaper and less invasive than hock injections and you’ll know right away if they help.

Horse shopping is not fun—it’s heartbreaking and expensive because of trainers like yours. No one wants to be the one losing money on a horse. You know this guy and love him. Don’t buy him, but if you can afford to, give him a chance to be useful.

[Montanas_Girl]

@carrotgirl

So… what happens to these horses if no one buys them? Do they get put down?

For a horse in chronic pain? Euthanasia is the kindest possible end to its suffering.

[Bristol_Bay]

@carrotgirl

So… what happens to these horses if no one buys them? Do they get put down?

They get lied about and passed along for whatever price they fetch. Sooner or later they’ll either end up being put down or some kind soul will retire them.

[2bayboys]

@Bogie

@carrotgirl

I would pursue a different horse just sounds like too much of a risk, knowing this history. if you were wanting a horse just to flat around that’s one thing but knowing that they tried and he refused for two years straight jumping . I’m fearful you may get the same result. If you are anticipating jumping this horse, I’m not so sure this is a good idea. if you were getting the horse for free surgery may be worth the gamble but if you were paying much for it, I’m not sure I would feel comfortable making the purchase.

I’m not sure if you realize how unusual it is for a vet to make such a specific, written recommendation to not buy a horse. I’ve had vet tell me verbally that a horse might not be appropriate, but putting it in writing is a very strong statement.

This.

OP, please do NOT skip over this very important part of the vet’s recommendation and only focus on the part where the vet throws out a “get your money back or trade” option. That last part is a BAD idea.

[fivestrideline]

@Bogie

I’m not sure if you realize how unusual it is for a vet to make such a specific, written recommendation to not buy a horse. I’ve had vet tell me verbally that a horse might not be appropriate, but putting it in writing is a very strong statement.

Just wanted to point this out again. Vets, as a rule, do NOT make emphatic statements like this. “Suitable or potentially unsuitable” is usually the strongest opinion you’ll get from a PPE.

If a vet says the professional equivalent of HELL NO, I’d listen. Without question.

Horse shopping doesn’t have to be that bad, actually. But it is CRUCIAL to have a good pro in your corner who cares about YOUR best interests, if you don’t have that expertise yourself. IIWM, I’d lease in the new location, get some coaching from a different source (diversification is really helpful - you’d be surprised at all the ways you can say “close your leg” lol), and go from there. Keep leasing until you’re showing and riding at a level that feels good to sit at for a bit. And most importantly, have fun!

[SnortyPants]

Hi alar24, did you include any eventing barns in your research? Would love to take a look!!!

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I definitely hope I wasn’t implying that KS is a death sentence for all horses! But for me the issue for the OP to do what you describe is:

1. It’s not her horse and not her problem until she buys him.

2. To do the injections and continue the lease, I bet she’d have to stay with the trainer offering the lease when she returned. I would be surprised if the trainer would go that off-site route when she was hoping to make $50K off the OP. Also, I’m truthfully suspicious (I’m an admittedly suspicious person by nature) of any continued relationship with this trainer, even an ongoing off-site lease.

3. Even if the trainer consented to the lease, probably the OP as a rider would benefit more, at this stage of her career, from leasing a horse without this issue. Even just to try a different horse would be beneficial, and trying out a completely different program. I know everyone feels badly for the KS horse…but there are other horses out there who could certainly benefit from and benefit the OP, probably with less heartbreak.

Maybe it’s because finances are tight with me right now that’s affecting my perspective. I know some people would say, “do whatever it takes to make the horse happy, buy him, give him cookies, just do what makes him comfortable, even if it’s never jumping again,” and maybe that’s more virtuous, but it seems like a lot of money to sink into a horse, when putting money into a potentially less heartbreaking horse who I am sure is out there, seems to be the better option. But also…

4. The vet’s recommendation sounds like this case of KS isn’t that mild, based on the report.

[NaturallyHappy]

I will add that I know of a vet who did a PPE on a horse who vetted sound. He did recommend the person not buy the horse as he felt she wasn’t experienced enough for this horse. She bought the horse anyway. He was right. I’ve not seen this before.

[findeight]

Many are assuming this trainer is active on the Grand Prix level and has the money and expertise to import a Grand Prix horse based on what OP shared which is based on what OP was told by her. Might be a big mistake there.

There are many levels of “Grand Prix” which really just means big prize. There are many horses who get called Grand Prix horses because they compete in recognized 1.5m big money classes. There are many more horses who competed non recognized GPs much lower…and have seen them at 1m. Ribbon says Grand Prix, it is big and was the prize so…

IME many European imports get sold as “GP prospects” as a marketing ploy. They do keep the ones that really have that scope over there and ship the rest to naive US buyers.

Something tells me this trainer is no Grand Prix level horseman and shes not associated with any elite level horses or people,

Like I said earlier, the horse business is nuanced and noobs need honest guidance rather than blindly trusting what they think they know about somebody. That includes that vet. What he wrote is outside their ethical guidelines, they just diagnose or pronounce suitable or not. They do not advise on how to work out a deal. That smells.

[alar24]

Just messaged you!!

[cayuse]

I had a vet ask me “Are you sure???” . I was and bought the little devil.

[LSBC]

I am so glad you came to this conclusion. I know a lady who bought two horses just because she could. She had the financial means and wanted to do it immediately, resulting in two disasters and numerous injuries. Both essentially became a money pit and too much for her to handle. This journey is for you and for finding a horse you trust no matter what.

[Mango20]

I’m glad to hear you had a PPE with x-rays, and are dodging this bullet. Don’t let the trainer talk you into taking on this problem at any price! She will probably continue using him in lessons and leasing him to other students. He might be okay sticking to lower level stuff for years, but let that be her risk, not yours.

Move to your new place, find a new barn, and take your time looking at horses to buy. With your budget, there are plenty of nice horses out there that can jump a meter and pass a PPE. While any horse may develop problems that you’ll have to deal with, you don’t want to start out with one, especially as your first horse.

I would also suggest looking at other barns for when you return back to the area you’re leaving now.

[Farosh]

I personally wouldn’t pay that much for any horse that is getting eliminated frequently at USEF shows, regardless of how fabulous it might be. I don’t care about the DNPs at least for a jumper because a lot of times those are the horses that are a little slower or being ridden by pros not trying to be the class winner.

Seriously I almost never placed in the last 2 years and it’s only because I’m too much of a chicken to go fast and cut turns and my horse never ever does a thing wrong and rarely drops a pole so if you look up her USEF it’s mostly DNPs. But we have never had a refusal. And once I retired because I was having issues with my gloves and couldn’t hold my reins… but yeah not my horse’s fault. Next 3 days with a change of gloves we were double clear.
I was paid to school a SUPER fancy pony once in the .80s and we were clear over the jumps and had like 40 time faults lol but my instructions were to go slow and use the ENTIRE arena… so I did
I also tried a horse recently that was 30k and winning everything in the .90s-1.0m had a flawless USEF. Like champion every week. Saw on clipmyhorse a video where the horse walked midway through the course. The lady who owns it is an older amateur and I assumed she was just lost or something. Tried the horse and it was the most dead, sulky, kicky, sour horse I think I’ve ridden in my entire life. Not dangerous but still really terrible. After riding it I’m certain the horse just planted with her midway through. I thought that lady was a complicated adult amateur but after riding the horse I thought she was actually very good
So my point is that USEF is definitely useful, but not the whole picture of a horse for sure.

But I’ve found so many good horses lately with good USEFs for a lot cheaper so no I wouldn’t pay 50k for one with refusals and issues. But if you like the horse maybe make a lower offer. Doesn’t mean it’s a bad horse but still 50k is a lot of money.

[ParadoxFarm]

@Mango20

I would also suggest looking at other barns for when you return back to the area you’re leaving now.

I completely agree with this. Whether you have another horse yet or not, you have the perfect opportunity to find a new barn family when you move back. I would encourage you to try that.