‘Pinque’ is an American term, ‘Pink’ is of unknown origin, most people I know just call their coat ‘red’ or ‘scarlet’. As the immortal Jorrocks said “no colour like red, no sport like foxhunting”.
Willesdon,
Interesting. I had always heard it was a British term. Here’s a source that seems to back that up; but there are no citations, so I’m not sure how accurate it is:
https://www.themarylandequestrian.com/history-of-the-hunt-coat/
Maybe Pinque, the London tailor, is apocryphal? And invented after the coats were already in fashion?
I think red coats are used because they stand out well against green trees and grass. All hunting fashion is practical. The colour was more significant than any individual tailor making a coat. There is the phrase “In the pink” which also has an unknown origin but probably has nothing to do with foxhunting.
As to what to call the colour, I suspect it is all about circles within circles of knowledge and membership. No knowledge = red, because it obviously is. Some knowledge = pink because someone came up with a story and it sounds rather good. American = Pinque because it is an even better story. The British version always calls the tailor “Pink”. Users = red, because it obviously is. My mother, who didn’t hunt, always insisted on ‘pink’, as did certain other ladies of similar age growing up in the 1940s. If you go to e.g. The Hunting Stock Market the mens’ coats are named ‘red’.
Like much hunting lore, it is hard to untangle fact from fiction and hunting folk do love a story and a tradition. This entire, extraordinarily long thread is a good example.
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Did a bit more digging and found this interesting summary of the various theories about origin:
http://junto.blogspot.com/2006/01/equestrianism-in-pink_28.html
Their conclusion is that the tailor named Pink, Pinke or Pinque was likely a fictional or invented character.
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No kidding. We are arguing over words like confederate grey and plantation on these forums while overlooking the rather obvious, more widespread and significantly more offensive “N-word” which a simple search shows that it appears in 229 lyrics and 50 different albums AND is still widely used in conversation. But it’s offensive. Extremely offensive.
Why do we accept that the N-word is a-okay when used by the very people who are most offended by it? Most of us would agree that it’s absolutely not okay, hasn’t been okay for a half century OR MORE, and is absolutely unacceptable. So, when will that word- the grand puba of offensive words - far more offensive than any Nazi word or confederate symbol - when will we ALL agree to stop using that word? Why perpetuate it? I have never heard a more offensive word in my life. Ever.
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Clearing throat. Now about the N-word. Spouse was seconded to Car plant in Detroit where Negro/black employees referred to others of their own race they didn’t like or approve of for whatever reason as the N-word. E.g. he/she is nothing but a N-word anyway. A double standard for sure. Their business, nothing to do with us.
I was a HR manager for a company is South Alabama. Inventory Mgr had saved for 4 years to custom order his dream truck waited 13 weeks for it to come in. On his way to work the first morning, he got hit by a drunk driver , no license, no insurance, truck totaled. The cops give him a ride to work and inside the cop car and not on company property said that a " N-Word trashed his truck" He was mad, every right to be, but he said it with window open.
A complaint was lodged in my office within minutes. Checked with Pres. of the company and then called this poor guy in my office to write him up. No excuse for it, I understood his situation but you cannot say that word. He took it pretty well but it was the cherry on top of a crap day.
Less than a hour later I was walking through the shop and hear the complainant laughing her butt off at her work mate, also of the same race. Complainant then uttered “N***** Please!” So I asked her to come with me and I wrote her up.
She was FURIOUS! I mean 3 year old stamping feet, threatening violence, screaming, throwing stuff, a real spit fit. She then told me I was only “doing this because she was black” I calmly showed her in the employee manual where that word and many other racist words were " prohibited by every person in hearing distance" and as she was leaving told her
" that you just said that to me because I was white and she, like the other employee, could have the rest of the day without pay"
In next 4 years I never heard or had another complaint of that word. There is no room for it, it should not be tolerated by any race in the workplace. I do not tolerate it today in my business and never will.
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It depends on who the “We” is. There is a double standard for the N-word. Same goes for Queer. But those epithets that have been re-appropriated by the oppressed groups who were/are demeaned by them is acceptable to me.
I think it’s a laughably-poor (as well as deeply unethical) argument when those who enjoy privilege and power that how everything goes-- down to language-- and then decide that the language, which supports that privilege and power-- is trivial. Or, even worse, they dismiss the interest in language and power as PC, as though wanting language and all other power structures to generate equality is a bad goal.
Speaking for an issue that may be more familiar to this group of readers: If women were paid on par with men, I wouldn’t care if everyone also complemented my nice tits. But it turns out that the opposite happens: Women are objectified-- reduced to a nice rack, so to speak-- and also paid or not-promoted and the rest as though that’s all they are. That correlation is not a coincidence, as this thread bears out.
Fixing language won’t fix everything. But nothing will get fixed without also fixing language. Shame on anyone who would police language so as to continue to minimized and oppressed group while also claiming that the issue doesn’t matter. That, too, is form of oppression.
IMO, the obligation of those with privilege is to make a real effort to walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes.
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There was a post about Salt Sack jackets and I’d not heard of one, so I googled. One of the first hits (at least googling from where I am) was the website of a US-based hunt. They noted under attire that, ’ Out of respect for our origins, a frock coat of Confederate gray is welcomed.’
That sentence tells me I would never want to join this club. And, before someone (or, more likely, many people) gleefully jumps on here to say the hunt wouldn’t want me and who cares and I must be “woke” (always - always - in derisive quotes), I fully acknowledge that you are correct. That statement tells me that I do not share values with the people who run that hunt and I wouldn’t be happy there and they wouldn’t be happy with me there.
But, especially with the finely pointed note about ‘respect for our origin,’ that website sends a strong signal and it’s not one that resonates with me. They would not attract me to hunting if I didn’t hunt (indeed it would put me right off); they would not entice me to let them use my land if I owned such in their area; they would not attract me over from another hunt, and I would not send my daughter to a meet with this hunt.
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@FitzE I repeated your Googling and came up with Rita Mae Brown’s Oak Ridge Hunt, and frankly, I was astonished, because RMB is all about inclusion and diversity. So that’s a weird contrarian point of view for her, for sure. In browsing the photos on the website, I only saw a couple of people, one of them RMB while hunting hounds, in the Confederate gray frock coat. Most opted for scarlet or black, with the purple and gold colors.
I have no idea what point Rita Mae is trying to make or how to make sense of any of it, but I’ll stand by my opinion that referencing the Confederacy in attire or club traditions is a bad look for a hunt club that’s trying to encourage inclusivity and recruit new members.
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That was the one. What a shame that message is there and written the way it is, especially given your personal knowledge of the situation. If they want to be inclusive and recruit new members, that message is the kiss of death. Or, I should say, that message will serve to recruit a certain type of new member and put off many other types of potential new members.
I fully share your opinion and stand by it as well. And it has nothing to do with all the pejorative claptrap people will trot out to cancel that opinion (wokeness, virtue signaling, etc.). If not for this discussion, no one would even know my opinion, reaction, or the effect of that statement on me. In real life, had I been looking to join a club in the area, I would simple see that statement and go, “yeah, no, that’s a hard pass from me,” and move on to look for another group in the area where I would feel more welcome and comfortable. That hunt would never know they lost my fees and volunteer hours and participation. I wouldn’t engage with them at all, certainly not in any activist way. It would be no different than googling dentists in a new area and seeing pictures of a surgery that as old and outdated and simply moving on to the next hit in the search.
So for everyone who is going to call me woke and PC and whatever else is the new put down, :rolleyes: you’re wrong. That statement simply drives traffic from me and people with similar outlooks away from that site/club and no one would be the wiser, just like none of the restaurants I don’t choose when I google Thai food know that I rejected them and went to a competitor instead all based on the websites of the local Thai restaurants.
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A nice feature about hunt clubs is while they follow MFHA guidelines, each club has their own style and personality. It appears the Oak Ridge Club is able to balance the past & present with a sense of humor as evidenced by the website. I think they would welcome southerners, northerners and everyone from VA to the west coast to join them in a day of sport, and hearty laughter following the hunt.
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especially given your personal knowledge of the situation.
To be clear, it’s not personal knowledge.
I know of Rita Mae mostly by reputation and by her books. I do have aquaintences that have hunted with her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Mae_Brown
Here’s some excerpts from the wiki for those that don’t want to click through:
“Rita Mae Brown (born November 28, 1944) is an American feminist writer, best known for her coming-of-age autobiographical novel, Rubyfruit Jungle. Brown was active in a number of civil rights campaigns, but tended to feud with their leaders over the marginalising of lesbians within the feminist groups. Brown received the Pioneer Award for lifetime achievement at the Lambda Literary Awards in 2015…Starting in late 1962, Brown attended the University of Florida at Gainesville on a scholarship.[SUP][5][/SUP] In the spring of 1964, the administrators of the racially segregated university expelled her for participating in the civil rights movement.[SUP][5] …[/SUP]Later in the 1960s, she participated in the anti-war movement, the feminist movement and the Gay Liberation movement.[SUP][15][/SUP] She was involved with the Student Homophile League at Columbia University in 1967 but left it because the men in the league were not interested in women’s rights.[SUP][16][/SUP]”
Her book Southern Discomfort was a tremendous help to me in decoding Southern culture as a new transplant.
Her “Sister Jane” foxhunting books are great escapist fun; and Sister Jane is a loosely based on Rita Mae herself, though Sister’s tastes run more hetero.
Also, Oak Ridge is entirely Rita Mae’s creation/project. Though the website says “reestablished 1993”; RMB built the current club from scratch. The kennels are at her farm, and she is both master and huntsman.
So I truly don’t understand the Confederate gray frock coats “out of respect for our origins” unless RMB is having a bit of a laugh.
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Thanks for that background. She sounds like a fascinating and dynamic woman! Makes that bit seem ever stranger, given her background, as you say.
Which is a lesson on keeping an open mind.
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And a bigger lesson in how you present your organization on line if your goal is to attract all kinds of people.
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But most organizations arent interested in attracting all kinds of people.
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If you’re implying that including Confederate grey in hunt colors is a coded message to ensure the hunt only attracts a certain kind of people; then yes, I agree with you - I think that’s the intent and the result.
However, a lot of hunts have discovered that there are not enough of the “right kinds of people” interesting in hunting any longer to actually support a pack of hounds and a hunt club; and have chosen to be more inclusive and welcoming, as the other option is extinction.
I believe the point that’s been made several times in this thread is that IF a hunt is interested in attracting new members, and having a membership that is more diverse; it is best to avoid such coded messages. If a hunt is not interested in attracted new members (and I can’t imagine one in that condition) then they should feel free to be as reactionary as they wish, perhaps restricting membership to people with an ancestor that came over on the Mayflower and riding in British cavalry livery of the 18th century. That would be a VERY small, albeit exclusive hunt indeed.
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Exactly. Thought that was easy to understand, but I guess we had to spell it out.
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Would using the phrase “Southern Grey” to describe the color be acceptable?
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