Conflicted about trainer...

[Scribbler]

@Mondo

Well I am going to throw a little monkey wrench into the works here. While I don’t disagree that moving on may be the best thing, I have to ask: Why did you come here looking for validation when what you NEED to do is make an appointment with the trainer, (not a text message, not a phone question, but a sit-down, face to face meeting), and express your concerns to HER. In person? Non-confrontational, just your observations, your feelings and then giving her a chance to weigh in.

I feel very strongly about this because I just lost a client. My advice to them was that they needed to have the vet inject their daughter’s horse’s hocks. The horse had been behaving badly and I was certain (still am) it was a pain response. Did they tell me they wanted to look into other reasons? Ask me to ride the horse for the teenager to see if I could “fix” the problems? Anything? NO. They became incommunicado for 2 full weeks. Ignored my calls and texts, etc.

Finally, I get a terse text from Dad, saying only: I will meet you at the barn at 4:30 on Thursday. We need to talk.

I replied with OK, but I am always available for a phone call. No reply. So Wednesday, I’m at the barn and Mom and the kid are there. Kid is lunging the horse in the round pen. So I said hi to Mom and asked her what Dad wanted to talk about.

I get this horrible core dump from her. They are convinced that I was aware the horse had a “rearing problem” when they bought her. (I knew no such thing!) They had decided that I was allowing their kid to ride a “dangerous” horse. Horse is not dangerous, kid just got scared. That horse acted badly but never once reared or bucked or unseated the kid. The kid had mentioned that she was not comfortable with my teaching style. (That had to be new, since I frequently found little cards and gifts from this teen in my brush box, telling me how much she loved her lessons.) The BO (at their request) had pointed them at a visiting H/J trainer and had that trainer get on the horse. That trainer informs them that the horse is not behaving badly because of pain (oh really? She knows NOTHING about this horse. I have its entire history) and that she can train the bad behavior out of the horse and they should move to her barn and worse case, she’ll sell the horse for them. (Oh, no conflict of interest, there. SMH. And, they are mad at me because of a “dangerous” horse, but have no issues selling it to someone else?)

OK - I’ve hijacked your thread long enough - let me just say that while I don’t have a problem with a client telling me they are going to a new trainer, I would at least like the courtesy of a conversation. My former clients came to these conclusions and did all this discussion etc., behind my back. I was never offered the opportunity to defend myself or that poor mare. Accusing me of knowingly putting their daughter on a dangerous horse is pretty heinous, not to mention untrue.

If you have such a long and previously good relationship with your trainer, FFS TELL her of your concerns! She might be relieved to tell you that she isn’t comfortable riding your horse anymore. She might get angry - who knows? But you owe it to her and your previous history to let her know your misgivings.

JMHO

This is good and timely advice.

I think many of us adults revert to our 11 year old selves around coaches and lose whatever problem solving skills we have developed in other areas of our adult lives.

Also we tend to be over invested in our horses emotionally so it becomes less “how do I fix this problem?” and more anxiety about how the horse reflects on us.

There is also the fine line between coach and friend. Most of the time you aren’t really friends with your coach. And if you are it isn’t necessarily a 100 % great thing as then you can be expected to take a back seat to new paying customers because you understand how hard coaches life is :).

Add children into the mix and the mom client who knows little about horses is even more likely to panic and bolt when “her child’s safety” is at risk.

Absolutely the OP should sit down and talk to trainer. Indeed we don’t know enough about the situation to even advise. But it is possible the whole setup and expectations are wrong for her.

It’s also possible that OP is acting in a way that communicates to the trainer that OP is blaming trainer for the poor results at the last show. Horse is always perfect for everyone else. Somehow I think there’s more to the story than that. Especially if trainer rode horse successfully in past.

Had trainer tried to tell OP about problems that OP doesn’t want to hear? Had OP withdrawn from trainer?

What does OP ultimately want? To show her own horse or to be an owner in the bleachers? These are things OP needs to know before she has a sit-down with coach.

[Mondo]

“…but also know that trainers will lie, intentionally or not, to avoid losing a client. Even the best will often say oh no stay when subconsciously they know they cannot meet the client’s needs, for whatever reason.” I’m sorry that you have had such bad experiences with trainers. I like to think I am the rule, not the exception. FWIW, I rarely have been “fired” by a client. To have to happen without any opportunity to discuss their issues with me was rather eye-opening.

And - potential confrontation, lying or whatever, I stand by my assertion that OP needs to discuss this with trainer, consequences be damned, before making any decisions.

[ladyj79]

Mondo I think it’s great that you don’t know any trainers who have underserved their clients, even if they really wanted to help and did their best but simply overestimated their own skill set.

[atlatl]

@Mondo

“…but also know that trainers will lie, intentionally or not, to avoid losing a client. Even the best will often say oh no stay when subconsciously they know they cannot meet the client’s needs, for whatever reason.” I’m sorry that you have had such bad experiences with trainers. I like to think I am the rule, not the exception. FWIW, I rarely have been “fired” by a client. To have to happen without any opportunity to discuss their issues with me was rather eye-opening.

And - potential confrontation, lying or whatever, I stand by my assertion that OP needs to discuss this with trainer, consequences be damned, before making any decisions.

While I agree that the best situation is where a professional, open and honest conversation takes place, I also recognize that it is not always possible or even desirable. The reality is that not all people, trainers or clients, want to have that conversation. I once offered to share with a barn owner why I was leaving; she said something along the lines of “well, you’ve already made up your mind so why waste our time?” I couldn’t argue with her because it clearly was going to be a waste of my time.

I’ve seen clients act badly, I’ve seen trainers act badly.

I’ve parted ways with trainers in a calm and respectful fashion, I’ve outright fired a trainer and I’ve been fired by one trainer. On one occasion, I literally waited until most of the clientele was present, drove in with my trailer, loaded up and gave notice in front of ~15 other people. Yes, I was sending a clear message that I believe was justified after trying to have “the conversation” and being outright lied to.

[LoriAlter]

@merrygoround

If your trainer is suddenly unable to ride your horse, it is definitely time to ask her what is happening. It should not be a confrontational question but a “Oh, my gosh, what happened sort of approach.” From the response or lack of intelligent response you get from that question, you can base your decision. Also. did she ride other horses that day? Is it possible she was sick, and too embarrassed to say so. What is her medication, or self medication history?

Yes, she did. And one ride was not good. This was her ride before my horse. I should not generalize. Thank you for reminding me!

Yes, it could be, and yes I could see her not wanting to say she didn’t feel well.

[LoriAlter]

@Scribbler

This is good and timely advice.

I think many of us adults revert to our 11 year old selves around coaches and lose whatever problem solving skills we have developed in other areas of our adult lives.

Also we tend to be over invested in our horses emotionally so it becomes less “how do I fix this problem?” and more anxiety about how the horse reflects on us.

There is also the fine line between coach and friend. Most of the time you aren’t really friends with your coach. And if you are it isn’t necessarily a 100 % great thing as then you can be expected to take a back seat to new paying customers because you understand how hard coaches life is :).

Add children into the mix and the mom client who knows little about horses is even more likely to panic and bolt when “her child’s safety” is at risk.

Absolutely the OP should sit down and talk to trainer. Indeed we don’t know enough about the situation to even advise. But it is possible the whole setup and expectations are wrong for her.

It’s also possible that OP is acting in a way that communicates to the trainer that OP is blaming trainer for the poor results at the last show. Horse is always perfect for everyone else. Somehow I think there’s more to the story than that. Especially if trainer rode horse successfully in past.

Had trainer tried to tell OP about problems that OP doesn’t want to hear? Had OP withdrawn from trainer?

What does OP ultimately want? To show her own horse or to be an owner in the bleachers? These are things OP needs to know before she has a sit-down with coach.

If there are problems, she would tell me. She is very forthright. I appreciate this about her.

I admit it I have been somewhat absent from barn life for the past year. I have had two surgeries in the space on 12 months so I’ve had some serious health stuff going on.

Ultimately i I want to get back to riding consistently and showing again. My crappy year health-wise made that very tough to do.

[LoriAlter]

@ThreeFigs

Is your horse one who gets “stage fright” at shows? I had one of those, and a client has another. Might that be the issue? Like others, though, sounds like time to move on. If you are indeed “competitive”, why not show your horse yourself?

He used to, but he has really developed with her and knows his job and enjoys it.

I have shown him, but I had some health problems this past year that kept me from riding. Just now starting to be able to ride consistently again.

[LoriAlter]

@Mondo

Well I am going to throw a little monkey wrench into the works here. While I don’t disagree that moving on may be the best thing, I have to ask: Why did you come here looking for validation when what you NEED to do is make an appointment with the trainer, (not a text message, not a phone question, but a sit-down, face to face meeting), and express your concerns to HER. In person? Non-confrontational, just your observations, your feelings and then giving her a chance to weigh in.

I feel very strongly about this because I just lost a client. My advice to them was that they needed to have the vet inject their daughter’s horse’s hocks. The horse had been behaving badly and I was certain (still am) it was a pain response. Did they tell me they wanted to look into other reasons? Ask me to ride the horse for the teenager to see if I could “fix” the problems? Anything? NO. They became incommunicado for 2 full weeks. Ignored my calls and texts, etc.

Finally, I get a terse text from Dad, saying only: I will meet you at the barn at 4:30 on Thursday. We need to talk.

I replied with OK, but I am always available for a phone call. No reply. So Wednesday, I’m at the barn and Mom and the kid are there. Kid is lunging the horse in the round pen. So I said hi to Mom and asked her what Dad wanted to talk about.

I get this horrible core dump from her. They are convinced that I was aware the horse had a “rearing problem” when they bought her. (I knew no such thing!) They had decided that I was allowing their kid to ride a “dangerous” horse. Horse is not dangerous, kid just got scared. That horse acted badly but never once reared or bucked or unseated the kid. The kid had mentioned that she was not comfortable with my teaching style. (That had to be new, since I frequently found little cards and gifts from this teen in my brush box, telling me how much she loved her lessons.) The BO (at their request) had pointed them at a visiting H/J trainer and had that trainer get on the horse. That trainer informs them that the horse is not behaving badly because of pain (oh really? She knows NOTHING about this horse. I have its entire history) and that she can train the bad behavior out of the horse and they should move to her barn and worse case, she’ll sell the horse for them. (Oh, no conflict of interest, there. SMH. And, they are mad at me because of a “dangerous” horse, but have no issues selling it to someone else?)

OK - I’ve hijacked your thread long enough - let me just say that while I don’t have a problem with a client telling me they are going to a new trainer, I would at least like the courtesy of a conversation. My former clients came to these conclusions and did all this discussion etc., behind my back. I was never offered the opportunity to defend myself or that poor mare. Accusing me of knowingly putting their daughter on a dangerous horse is pretty heinous, not to mention untrue.

If you have such a long and previously good relationship with your trainer, FFS TELL her of your concerns! She might be relieved to tell you that she isn’t comfortable riding your horse anymore. She might get angry - who knows? But you owe it to her and your previous history to let her know your misgivings.

JMHO

not looking for validation. I’m genuinely conflicted and wondering how others have handled similar issues. And I would of course have a sit down with her to discuss all of this. Because we have been together for years and this is a new thing. I would give her that consideration. I’m not a jerk.

[LoriAlter]

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate your advice and thoughts, really. It has helped me to clarify what I want and what my goals are, as well as some things that I could be doing that could be impacting the relationship and how I can move forward.

[ladyj79]

@LoriAlter we had a client who has a horse with us in Florida from weanling to under saddle four year old when we organized and brokered a sale. The owner never came, not one single time. I never met them, and they never met the horse. It was an “investment”. It actually shouldn’t be on the owner to oversee or even be involved in the process any more than they desire or can be.

So your surgeries should not at all have impacted the services you were receiving or your horse’s progress.

But I’ve also seen multiple busy or absent owners get taken for a ride. Even if there were good intentions.

If you accept money for a service, provide the service. If a trainer is unable or unwilling for whatever reason to meet the terms of the agreement, in an ideal world the trainer would simply acknowledge this and everyone could either re-evaluate mutual goals or move on.

Unfortunately, as I mentioned several times, this doesn’t always happen for whatever reason.

Of course you can sit down and have a chat. Possible the situation can be resolved or clarified. But again, this is supposed to be fun, not stressful, and you absolutely should not feel wrong for a) expressing your concerns, even if it’s just venting here, or b) exploring other options, or c) throwing your horse in a field and feeding him sugar and telling him how pretty he is if that’s what will make you happy for a while.

[Mondo]

Wow - atlatl that sounds awful. But my perspective is that you tried. That’s the main thing. And of course you knew on at least one occasion when it would go badly and wasn’t worth the likely ensuing drama. I say good for you! Also in the instance that the trainer blew you off. Maybe I AM the exception. I just try to conduct my business dealings with honestly and openness, so I expect others to do the same. Maybe I have on rose-colored glasses?

To the OP - I did not mean to suggest that you are a jerk. I’m glad you are planning to have the talk with your trainer. I hope for your sake, that it goes well and trainer doesn’t react unprofessionally. Good luck!

[hoopoe]

LoriA could your trainer be sparing you from full knowledge because of your health issues this last year? Are your health problems perhaps causing you some perspective / rationalization issues. re you seeing clearly and unemotionally, without stress?

I think it is time for a honest and gentle talk, scheduled at a time when you can talk without interruption. Book a time with her and tell her you would like to discuss the coming season schedule and training program for the horse and for you as you rejoin the barn scene.

[Scribbler]

@LoriAlter

If there are problems, she would tell me. She is very forthright. I appreciate this about her.

I admit it I have been somewhat absent from barn life for the past year. I have had two surgeries in the space on 12 months so I’ve had some serious health stuff going on.

Ultimately i I want to get back to riding consistently and showing again. My crappy year health-wise made that very tough to do.

If you are on the road to recovery this would be a good opportunity to sit down and plan out your return to riding and lessons. You can talk about what the three of you ( you trainer and horse) can do moving forward.

You are going to want to transition into the saddle through some short quiet rides, and if your horse is hot or difficult, maybe on another horse. You will probably want some supervision but not a full lesson.

I broke my foot, tiny break, in December, which was absolutely nothing in the total panorama of human suffering. But boy did I lose stamina and strength overall! Anyhow figure out what you need to do to start getting back in the saddle even if it’s a 15 minute lead line session because the ground looks very far away!

And even if saddle time is still in the future this could give your conversation a shape going forward and let coach know you are not fading out.

[spotnnotfarm]

I have been In this exact situation. I worked with someone for several years. I was one of her first clients and really worked to promote her. Our dynamic changed and it felt like she was phoning it in. As hard as it was, I switched trainers and have never looked back. If it stops working, do not feel you need to stay out of loyalty. The mistake I made was thinking we were friends, which I realized, we were not. Move on.

[MysticOakRanch]

@spotnnotfarm

I have been In this exact situation. I worked with someone for several years. I was one of her first clients and really worked to promote her. Our dynamic changed and it felt like she was phoning it in. As hard as it was, I switched trainers and have never looked back. If it stops working, do not feel you need to stay out of loyalty. The mistake I made was thinking we were friends, which I realized, we were not. Move on.

Yep, I’ve been in that situation too… Sometimes it is just time to move on…

[netg]

So knowing you were mostly absent for a year changes my perspective on it a bit.

First of, congratulations on getting to the point you can get back out there! One of my barn friends had so many health problems she sold her horse and doesn’t expect to really ride again. We all miss her, and when she comes around to visit you can tell she feels a bit left out, there’s just no way to REALLY help that.

Which leads to your situation - I think your considerations and desire to get involved again are good awareness for you. I think a sit down to establish goals as you’re working your way back is a really good idea, too. Just remember that while you weren’t there, things moved on - and interaction with you isn’t the easy, natural thing it was before after that long - your trainer has now developed patterns of interaction with others. I suspect your trainer is an introvert from your description, or at least is socially awkward at times, as are many of us. It’s natural for things to not go back to exactly as they were before you had health challenges, and to take time to re-settle. That is different from making up excuses if your trainer isn’t really trying - but it’s also possible your trainer has “dumbed down” the riding a bit to try to make it so you can more easily ride as you are coming back. My trainer is one who won’t do it for most of us, but for an older client or one with a major physical issue whose goal is to ride, I think he would likely work to make the horse more rideable even if it meant less spectacular.

The show performance? Every horse can have a bad day, and if your horse hasn’t been shown while you’ve been out, I would expect that would play into it as well. I rarely show, and pay the price by having a horse who is used to living turned out in a field with a herd who isn’t comfortable being stuck alone in a stall. That’s just the price I pay for my lack of showing.

[Angela_Freda]

@LoriAlter

. Last time she showed my guy, she basically bombed with my horse. My horse had been earning great scores all season, we get to a very important show, and all of a sudden, train wreck. I understand that every day your horse can be different, but this was embarrassing. This horse was listening to her, relaxed, trying for her, but she broke down in the ring. I checked him over after. Nothing wrong with him. During warm up he looked great. She gets him into the ring, totally different story. This horse is very familiar with that venue. I watched it happen across multiple tests

DO you two not hold a show debriefing afterwards?
What did the trainer say about the ride[s] and how badly they went? Did she share a plan for corrections for the next outing?
It seems to me that is part of what you are paying for, information when it all goes sideways.

What does ‘she broke down in the ring’ mean?

[AltersAreUs]

@ladyj79

[USER=“239970”]

But I’ve also seen multiple busy or absent owners get taken for a ride. Even if there were good intentions.

If you accept money for a service, provide the service. If a trainer is unable or unwilling for whatever reason to meet the terms of the agreement, in an ideal world the trainer would simply acknowledge this and everyone could either re-evaluate mutual goals or move on.
.

It doesn’t seem like the OP suspects that the trainer isn’t delivering the services, though. Unless I missed it, it doesn’t sound like the trainer isn’t riding the horse regularly. It sounds more like the trainer might be phoning it in instead of actually being invested in making the horse the best it can be.

I’ve been there with a trainer that I’d been with for years. When I was her “star” (in that I was the student showing recognized shows and doing really well at them) she seemed to be all in and on the same page with me, ambition wise. We built plans with timelines & goals, had hot washes after shows to discuss what did & didn’t work and Ms. Mare & I progressed.

Then she got some new students with some really nice horses and suddenly we were doing the same ole same ole, week after week. She stopped being willing to talk about short & long term goals. She stopped trying to find new solutions to issues and just kept repeating the same thing over & over even when it wasn’t working. She made time for the other students after shows but not me. Heck, she even stopped being willing to coach me AT shows if other students were there and got very upset when I refused to pay for that non-existent coaching. Sorry, stopping by my trailer to say “hi” does not rate you a coaching fee for a day when I didn’t see you again until after both my rides, neither of which she watched.

That, combined with some unprofessional drama with between her and another student, convinced me that she was not the trainer for me. I regret not leaving sooner. Ironically, those other students on their lovely horses still aren’t doing as well as I was when I left with my decidedly average moving off-breed.

[ladyj79]

Phoning it in certainly qualifies as failing to provide a service.

[AltersAreUs]

Depends on what the agreement is. If it’s “Ride 6 times a week while the OP is dealing with her health” without an agreed upon set of goals, then as long as trainer’s butt is in the saddle, she’s meeting the service requirements. Is the OP paying for training with goals defined or is a loosey goosey arrangement of “I’ll keep him in shape & show him some while you’re out” sort of thing?