Conformation Opinions

I’m not positive if this would belong in this section of the forum - if not, then mods - feel free to move me.

Anyways - I am currently hunting for my newest horse. I will be looking to do mid-upper level eventing with the horse (I myself haven’t yet begun eventing, but I do intend to work with a trainer to get both the horse and myself as far as possible). I am looking primarily at OTTBs, which always have and always will have a special place in my heart. I’ve got three tonight that I’ve got my eyes on - all of which are from CanterUSA.org. My eye is not currently very trained to spot conformation flaws aside from stifle placement, pastern length/angle, and the humerus length. So I do beg for tips to train my eye and opinions on the following horses’ conformation. How would they fare as eventers? Are there any conformation flaws with any of them, and would it possibly affect their futures?

My favorite - Comisario - a 2011 16.1HH gelding
https://canterusa.org/horses/12912/comisario/

Next favorite - First Choice - a 2008 16.1HH gelding
https://canterusa.org/horses/15071/first-choice/

Final favorite - Forester’s Hope - 2009 16.1HH mare
https://canterusa.org/horses/11230/foresters-hope/

I will update on whatever horse I spot next. Good day/night/whatever to everyone!

Comisario - He’s a little long for my personal taste, but I don’t event. I always check the race record for any gaps that could indicate an injury. This horse raced in August 2014, then not again until January 2015. Possibly had some time off for r&r, then was brought back in to get fit to run. But he only ran 3x then had a long break of 6 months, then he ran pretty steady until now.

First Choice - I do not like him at all, sorry. Looks like he will be a choppy mover, and the videos did nothing to help my opinion.

Hope - From the photos, she looks like she is a powerful girl. I like her under saddle, she has what looks to me a good strong canter and will be forward and brave cross country. However, if you look at the insides of her hocks in the photos, it looks like she is hitting herself, and I would take a good close look at her hocks. She ran regularly and looks like her connections thought a lot of her in her early years. I’d find out what she has been doing between July 2015 and now, and if she was retired due to injury.

Hello! Welcome to the Forum, and to event world. You’ve come to the right place, there are lots of eventers here with OTTBs who can be able to help you. I’ll reply with my insights, but would be remiss in mentioning a few things: 1. go to the track with an experienced OTTB retrainer - someone who has BTDT and has developed an eye for sussing out lamenesses and structural disparities that an average person might miss – 2. make sure you have a trainer who is willing to work with you with an OTTB!

You mentioned mid-UL prospect; I’ll assume that means something like Training/Prelim? Generally, most TBs can jump those heights - it’s the dressage or the soundness that might prevent them from that. I’ve picked up several OTTBs now and have developed my own preference for what I want to see in an OTTB.

  1. I want a great walk. I don’t want short steps, no overtrack, gait asymmetry or too fast/too slow. I want to see a loose, fluid, rolling walk - have you ever seen a lioness walk? that is the type of walk I envision. A good walk almost always correlates to a good gallop, a great walk to a great gallop – and one of the most important gaits for an event horse is the gallop.

  2. I keep my guys at home, so there are some lamenesses I am willing to overlook because I can give them the winter off. There is a difference between ‘tracky’ (which is body-soreness) and lame - I’ll take a chance on a tracky horse if all else is okay; but I will pass on a horse where I see obvious gait asymmetry behind.

  3. Conformation - this is the sum of all parts - how the horse moves, etc. I will let some flaws slide if the horse has 30-50+ starts and is a good mover - but some things I will not touch: straight stifle-to hock with short upright femur. Will not touch it. IME asking for sore stifles and suspensory issues. Some straightness behind is okay, but not the two together and not straightness from stifle to hock. Some straightness is okay if they have perfect hind end configuration otherwise (see Wild Brassy, Economic Forecast in links at bottom). Long weak loin with moderate straight hind legs - will not touch. Goose-rumped by itself is ok, not ok when combined with long loin or straight hinds. Overly long pasterns or toeing out, will not touch. Toeing in is okay, in most cases. Bucked shins + over at the knee, ok - over@ the knee is usually work-load induced and not actually a conformation flaw. I want to see a shoulder with a moderately set back elbow, long forearm and shortish cannon - this directly relates to how easily they can open up their stride, and usually correlates to good movement. I do not like horses that have very forward placed elbows that sit right on top of their shoulder. Usually combined with straighter shoulder as well.

  4. My ‘type’ - The first thing I look at is the type of ground the horse stands over. I want straight front legs, a sloped shoulder, a strong loin connection and I want to see a steep, long angle in the femur with a forward, almost high placed stifle, broad angled hocks, and a good amount of angle behind. I want to see a big, broad engine behind - with a forward LS placement near or over the point of hip. IME this speaks well of athleticism and ability to fold limbs over fences. The neck I’d prefer to come up and out but many race horses have lower set necks; I have a lot of flexibility when it comes to the neck, but next to no flexibility when it comes to the configuration of the haunches.

I will respond with my personal insights, but it is worth what you paid for it – take what works and leave the rest :slight_smile:

Comisario:
Really nice pedigree. Unbridleds Song horses make good mid-UL horses. Usually good movers. Usually longer in the back than I like. He’s got some good blood for eventing; Siphon, Deputy Minister and Cox’s Ridge… He’s going to be athletic. Off of the pedigree alone I like him.

Conformationally, he’d be a pass for me. I saw something in that LH that could be risky. He’s a little too long in the back for my preferences. He looks really sweet otherwise, and I hope he gets a good home where they give him groceries… he looks fit but I think he needs a lot of attention in the nutrition department. I think he’d make a fine eventer if you could isolate what is going on… and he’s a good mover.

First Choice:
I love his pedigree. You would have a lot of athleticism in this pedigree. I would expect a great canter, good movement. Linebred to Fappiano, proven event sire - and iMHO, I love First Samurai, but I might be biased. GC throws some very nice horses and passes along a lot of very nice dressage movement. Damside is good too, with some notable names for durability.

His conformation is much more ideal for me; if you took his front half and gave it to Comisario, you’d have almost my ideal type. He has a great shoulder, excellent forearm to cannon ratio, he’s got a nice defined neck, and good heartgirth, depth of barrel, and a better loin connection than the horse above. He is not without his flaws; I do not like how upright his pasterns look, he has an osselet up front, and needs some serious farrier attention. In his older pictures he does not look so butt-high, and I don’t like how in every picture the RH is not flexed/fully weight bearing. He does not have the amount of angle behind I prefer. I really like his type from the barrel forward, but would pass because I don’t love that hind end configuration or how he is walking/trotting on the RH. He looks like a character though, and if pedigree is any indication, would be a very smart, sharp horse for someone.

Forester’s Hope:

Pedigree: This mare, of all of them, probably has the most innate jump talent if she lives up to her pedigree. lots of good names, Forestry has some really good horses on the ground, Irish Castle/River are great turf horses, and her dam-side has some very good old blood up close - I’d expect eventing would be easy for her. I would not expect dressage type movement but would expect a good canter/gallop.

Conformationally it’s hard for me to assess her as her pix are not straight on - same problem as before though: I like her front end, don’t care for her hind end. She’s goose-rumped and I want to see what her actual hq looks like but can’t because of the angle… She looks cowhocked… not a deal breaker for me if they move squarely. in the video it doesn’t look terrible. I watched the video and of the three, she’d be the one I picked. She’s tense in the video but that has the making of a very, very nice trot and canter. That part where she got tense at the trot I saw a bobble on her RH but IMHO, I wonder if it is a strength issue. I found a newer video and the bobble wasn’t there.

Of the three, I think Forester’s Hope wins by a landslide, at least for me.

For an example of my ideal type, here are some I pulled from the FLF listings:
Little Gidding
Wild Brassy
Economic Forecast ** this guy was rescued by a COTHER and is looking for his forever home…
Midnight Tucker - the guy I took home

I noticed they were all bay… oops. Not on purpose, but I do like me a solid bay :wink:

[QUOTE=beowulf;8965609]

Midnight Tucker - the guy I took home

I noticed they were all bay… oops. Not on purpose, but I do like me a solid bay ;)[/QUOTE]

OMG, those feet! From the pics they look like the best I’ve seen on a horse on the track. Really lovely horse. :slight_smile:

Beowulf gave a ton of good information. I think something to consider is what your own strengths are as a rider, and therefore what you need in a horse. I saw all three as very different types of horses, and they would need different rider strengths. For example, I do not mind tension in horses as I have a prozac-like effect most of the time. I can get a tight back swinging. However, if a horse naturally has its hind legs out behind, I have a lot of trouble riding them up under the horse. (The strength and weakness are definitely tied together in my riding tendencies.)

How about build - do you do better on narrower horses (I do due to short legs and hip problems) or do you need a wider horse who takes up more leg?

I probably agree with Beowulf - and again, the same problem with the angles on the final horse. I do not like the loin connections on any of these horses - they all appear long, and one benefit of racing fit is you see the little dip on their back where lumbosacral joint is - and can see lack of alignment with the point of the hip. You want them directly aligned one over the other ideally, and the first two don’t have this, and I suspect the third doesn’t either. For eventing it doesn’t need to be perfect, but WAY off can be problematic. You also don’t want too steep a hip (the goose rump mentioned) because it means the femur is shorter and both ability to open up in gallop and ability to power off the ground become limited.

There are absolutely imperfect horses who do well and thrive with imperfect conformation, and as long as they’re sound all these horses can probably do better than I would guess they could if warmbloods, because the sheer athleticism and heart of a TB is hard to beat. So in that sense, you can’t really go wrong. But why not try to go as right as possible? :slight_smile:

I would also consider looking at some reseller horses. Jessica Redman of Benchmark Sport Horses gets in a ton of super nice horses, for example. She’s on this forum as well, so may chime in with suggestions.

[QUOTE=netg;8965720]
OMG, those feet! From the pics they look like the best I’ve seen on a horse on the track. Really lovely horse. :slight_smile:

Beowulf gave a ton of good information. I think something to consider is what your own strengths are as a rider, and therefore what you need in a horse. I saw all three as very different types of horses, and they would need different rider strengths. For example, I do not mind tension in horses as I have a prozac-like effect most of the time. I can get a tight back swinging. However, if a horse naturally has its hind legs out behind, I have a lot of trouble riding them up under the horse. (The strength and weakness are definitely tied together in my riding tendencies.)

How about build - do you do better on narrower horses (I do due to short legs and hip problems) or do you need a wider horse who takes up more leg?

I probably agree with Beowulf - and again, the same problem with the angles on the final horse. I do not like the loin connections on any of these horses - they all appear long, and one benefit of racing fit is you see the little dip on their back where lumbosacral joint is - and can see lack of alignment with the point of the hip. You want them directly aligned one over the other ideally, and the first two don’t have this, and I suspect the third doesn’t either. For eventing it doesn’t need to be perfect, but WAY off can be problematic. You also don’t want too steep a hip (the goose rump mentioned) because it means the femur is shorter and both ability to open up in gallop and ability to power off the ground become limited.

There are absolutely imperfect horses who do well and thrive with imperfect conformation, and as long as they’re sound all these horses can probably do better than I would guess they could if warmbloods, because the sheer athleticism and heart of a TB is hard to beat. So in that sense, you can’t really go wrong. But why not try to go as right as possible? :slight_smile:

I would also consider looking at some reseller horses. Jessica Redman of Benchmark Sport Horses gets in a ton of super nice horses, for example. She’s on this forum as well, so may chime in with suggestions.[/QUOTE]
Thank you… He has turned into an incredible horse. Great quality feet once we took care of the angles. I nearly bought him sight unseen just because of how he took care of his people and was so chill (see video, his handler is more unsound than he is :lol:) Best $800 I ever spent.

I agree with checking out some resellers over picking your own. Benchmark has great horses, as does Three Plain Bays.

P.P.S OP… this horse is really nice, IMHO - I really like Candy Ride horses:
http://www.newvocations.org/horseprofiles/agronomy/#

Thank you so much, everyone!

The reason I’ve got my eye on First Choice is because he’s a lot more local than any of the others - I wouldn’t be purchasing him sight unseen.
I’ll take a look at some resellers too - I just have quite a few trust issues with people due to things that have gone wrong with buying horses from resellers in the past. Unfortunately, I think that my favorite is still Comisario, and I’m perfectly okay with fattening a horse up. I have also contacted the trainer with him - she said that he’s had some hoof issues in the past that weren’t properly treated at first but now they’re getting a handle on them. I’ll be doing a PPE regardless.

One more horse that came to mind - I used to own this boy, and I had him for a little under a year. I’ll find some of his old pictures as well as link him. I know for a fact that he does have ulcers, and those are likely why we didn’t ‘click’ when I owned him. I was just too much of a beginner and he was too much of a horse, but I believe I could handle him at this point once he was treated for ulcers. Note - the name on his Petfinder.com page is misspelled.

Blandishing - a 2009 16.2HH gelding
https://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/33211902
Couldn’t find any pictures that would show his conformation.

I will continue to update.

I think that Comisario needs a little more than fattening up. Do you have someone who can point out shortness of strides, gait irregularity, uneven hips, and the like? He is very cute, and he’s grey so many go through “grey blindness”… but I think the other two might be better choices for you. He has either a hematoma or something on his LH, and is not traveling sound on it. It’s a good example of a subtle lameness I wouldn’t take a risk on, but other people would. It will either be rewarding, or it won’t.

I hate genuinely critiquing these horses as I don’t want anything I say to prevent them from getting a home, so I will leave it at that. All three are nice horses deserving of homes.

I actually prefer bays/chestnuts over most greys. Both of my previous boys were bays - one dark, one copper. I’ll be speaking with Comisario’s trainer later today and I’ll ask if she knows of anything. Like I said before, he’ll have a PPE done. My trainer has a lot of experience with OTTBs and spotting flaws, and she’d be glad to help I’m sure.

One last question - which is probably a really stupid one - but are there any racetracks that I’d be able to go to (obviously with someone more experienced than I) and see the horses that are retiring?

Okay, this is my last question. Would a retired-from-racing standardbred be something to look into?

Welcome to the site, RacetoEvent!

I just moved your thread here to the Eventing forum, since you’re looking for input specific to that discipline.

Thanks and good luck in the search ~
Mod 1

I also see the unevenness in Comisario’s LH and would want to know what’s going with it before taking a chance, especially as it’s visible on a straight line and not under tack. I like the mare best of the three. She looks like a handful under saddle so it depends on what kind of ride you like. When she relaxes and settles she moves nicely.

When I used to foster for CANTER NE, they had a “showcase” day at the end of the season when people could go to the track and see a LOT of horses. Horses that were fostered by CANTER were generally in the area and you could visit and ride them. Some training farms are also close to the track.

Horses that are owned by organizations like CANTER and who are fostered are a good bet because they have been re-started under saddle and you can get a much better idea for their post-track temperament and aptitude. I foxhunt, so I like to know, for example, how a horse is going to respond to being ridden out cross country and what their jumping aptitude will be. Yes, most can jump, but some aren’t very brave and aren’t going to be suitable for hunting or eventing. I had one that hung her knees really badly and decided it wasn’t worth it me to try to train it out of her. That was one I owned (she was beautiful!) and I sold her to a non-jumping home. As a foster, I was very honest with prospective adopters about what I thought the horse would be good at – the goal was to find the right home, not to sell at the best price.

I know a few people who’ve gotten some really nice retired standardbreds. Definitely a consideration! In general they are a bit more levelheaded and calmer than TBs, although I’ve seen a few extremely mellow OTTBs, too.

[QUOTE=beowulf;8965901]
I think that Comisario needs a little more than fattening up. Do you have someone who can point out shortness of strides, gait irregularity, uneven hips, and the like? He is very cute, and he’s grey so many go through “grey blindness”… but I think the other two might be better choices for you. He has either a hematoma or something on his LH, and is not traveling sound on it. It’s a good example of a subtle lameness I wouldn’t take a risk on, but other people would. It will either be rewarding, or it won’t.

I hate genuinely critiquing these horses as I don’t want anything I say to prevent them from getting a home, so I will leave it at that. All three are nice horses deserving of homes.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RacetoEvent;8965933]

Okay, this is my last question. Would a retired-from-racing standardbred be something to look into?[/QUOTE]

yes, yes yes a thousand times yes. Although - caveat - Upper Level potential will likely be harder to come by.

Find a trotter who has been restarted and has had someone “install” a good canter transition. After that, you are golden. Standies are lovely, sweet horses with amazing minds. I’ve ridden a few that were outstanding jumpers, as well.

Alright, I’ll see if I can get another jogging video from Comisario’s trainer. Thank you all for all of the input.

yes, yes yes a thousand times yes. Although - caveat - Upper Level potential will likely be harder to come by.

Find a trotter who has been restarted and has had someone “install” a good canter transition. After that, you are golden. Standies are lovely, sweet horses with amazing minds. I’ve ridden a few that were outstanding jumpers, as well.

I peeked at a few and I found one who’s already begun jumping and is all-around pretty broke. I’ll link her below.

Glissade - a 2008 15.2HH Standardbred mare
http://www.newvocations.org/horseprofiles/glissade/

One of the trainers I got into touch with just sent me a filly (didn’t mention a name) who - in my unexperienced eye - doesn’t look too shabby. I’d put her picture below but I’m having a brain freeze currently and cannot figure out how to post individual pictures.

WOW! That Wild Brassy filly from FingerLakes just screams sporthorse class!! Great conformation and a beauty to boot. Just WOW!!

[QUOTE=Lusoluv;8966401]
WOW! That Wild Brassy filly from FingerLakes just screams sporthorse class!! Great conformation and a beauty to boot. Just WOW!![/QUOTE]
Agreed! My horse of a lifetime was a Dixie Brass horse. He looked just like his sire. When he passed away unexpectedly I looked very, very hard for “siblings” – but DB didn’t cover a whole lot of mares in the scheme of things, and at the time he had been dead for over ten years… that and, Dixie Brass was a leading sire in NY and many of his kids were very, very sound race horses. The mares were kept for broodmares. DB didn’t live very long, but I’ve met a few of his kids now - mine included were all incredibly sound, powerful jumpers - my guy was so scopey it was unbelievable. Small world that it is, I kept him at my friend’s barn in Aiken and she ended up with a Dixie Brass horse who is just like him, but chestnut - scope for days. They aren’t great dressage movers, I’ll be honest, but they can jump.

That mare IS special though. She’s tough, a warhorse, and with great connections.

The timing is not right for me, or she would have been in my trailer, in my front yard the second I saw her listing. It’s crazy how well DB stamps because when I saw her I knew she was related to my guy; they have the same honkin forehead, curly ears and big nose; here’s a pic of him and a second of him teaching a beginner how to ride. Unfortunately one of my projects had a really catastrophic injury (and subsequent vet bills) in October that depleted most of my medical/spare change fund.

Great backstory, Beowulf. I was looking last year and got a nice ISH mare (3/4TB). If I were looking now, I’d be calling on Wild Brassy’s listing, even tho she’s a good distance from me!

Okay, a few updates.

First - Comisario is out of the picture. I’m not going to state the reason because - in case someone has their eye on him and somehow finds this - I don’t want to scate them off.

Second - It seems like First Choice is also out of the picture. His owner is considering training him to be a track pony.

Third - I will be going to visit a filly over the weekend. I do quite like her, based upon what her trainer said over the phone. Her registered name is Love You Up (which I personally really like) and she’s a 16.3HH three year old. She raced once (this past Saturday) and came in dead last, obviously lacking a taste for racing. Further information about her to come after I see her. I still have a brain block as to how to post a picture that doesn’t have a link.

Well, brain blank over. Figured it out. Picture of her below.

http://imgur.com/GpcOX2J

Opinions on her? I know it’s not the best angle for conformation, but what do you think based on what you can see? What do you guys think of her pedigree? I’ll link her pedigree as well.

http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=9731937&registry=T

P.S. - She’s actually two. I thought she was three for some reason.

straight shoulder upright pasterns = uncomfortable ride for one.

not a good picture to judge conformation on but so far, i like what i see… very, very nice pedigree. best of you’ve listed so far.

i say go look at her and see what you have… i expect from a pedigree like that she is not anywhere near as straight shouldered as she looks in the pic… i would expect BIG… pleasant colony+smart strike +gone west is EVENT prospect all over it.

Yeah, I’m super excited to see her tomorrow. I’ll try to get better conformation-showing pictures. I’ve watched her (only) race video probably too many times, but I get a kick out of how far back she was. I’ll update again after seeing her. Fingers crossed!