Confused About the "English vs Western" Divide—Isn’t It Just the Saddle?

[Kirikou]

FBook just recommended this to me: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/why-am-i-so-judgy-about-western-riding-asking-for-a-friend/ and it reminded me how consistently confused I am by what feels—to my non-US raised self—like an arbitrary distinction between “English” and “Western” riding.

I mean… isn’t it just the saddle?
If you’re trail riding in a Western saddle or in your trusty Stubben Tristan, you’re still just trail riding, right?

Now, don’t get me wrong—I’m definitely not immune to stereotypes about specific disciplines. Like… calf roping? Unless you’re actually out on the range in Montana doctoring cattle, why exactly are we choking baby calves in an arena “for funsies”? Or Western Pleasure —what is that 4-beat lope doing??

But see, that’s discipline-specific. What I don’t get is this blanket division based on tack. A couple of my lesson kids are doing 4H this year, and while I’m not directly involved (I live in a state where English tack isn’t allowed in events because, quote, “it is not safe”— what?! ), I do hear a lot about it. These girls keep telling me that their Western Pleasure prep is “so different” from what they do in lessons with me.
But aside from the one-handed rein thing and the bling, aren’t the biomechanics pretty similar? Isn’t it still about being soft, balanced, and riding in a way that allows the horse to go well?

Would love to hear others’ thoughts—especially from folks who ride or teach in both styles. What am I missing?

#confused

[GraceLikeRain]

Eh this thread will probably disintegrate quickly. Yes, at the best of every discipline are very similar core values and biomechanics. In practice, by discipline you can have vast differences in training methodology. Some is driven by the nuance of the sport and others by philosophy. Both a barrel racer and Grand Prix dressage horse need to understand bend but how that feels, looks, is trained, etc is going to be vastly different.

At the end of the day do what works for you and if you’re curious about another discipline find a good training to lesson with a few times.

[FjordBCRF]

@GraceLikeRain

Eh this thread will probably disintegrate quickly. Yes, at the best of every discipline are very similar core values and biomechanics. In practice, by discipline you can have vast differences in training methodology. Some is driven by the nuance of the sport and others by philosophy. Both a barrel racer and Grand Prix dressage horse need to understand bend but how that feels, looks, is trained, etc is going to be vastly different.

Agreed.

I also think that the cultures around the different disciplines can be a big difference outside of the riding ring as well.

[ParadoxFarm]

Even within “English” riding, the methods can be very different. I compared my riding on my h/j an dressage horses to what a good friend does with her specific breed’s hunter riding, and they are completely different. The horse moves differently, and the riding looks very different in position, and mechanics. I don’t think I could ride her horse the way she does, and probably vice versa.

[FjordBCRF]

And stock horse “English” is dramatically different than Dressage and H/J!

Editing to add Saddleseat too. Which I know next to nothing about.

[Mosey_2003]

It’s not about the tack, they’re entirely different cultures.

[NoSuchPerson]

Imagine putting upper level dressage riders, hunters, show jumpers, saddle seat riders, and eventers all together in a room and saying, “Hey, you’re all English riders, right? You just use different saddles, but otherwise you all ride and train the same.”

Explaining the difference between western and English is a huge topic, as is explaining the differences between the various disciplines within western world. How deep do you want to dive?

[Obsidian_Fire]

@Kirikou

What I don’t get is this blanket division based on tack.

That’s just an exceptionally generic statement is all; like saying I’m white and you’re not. There are a vast number of variations on that theme - think the differences between a Scandinavian white and a South Africa white… make sense?

@Kirikou

These girls keep telling me that their Western Pleasure prep is “so different” from what they do in lessons with me.

Western Pleasure is not a discipline I would associate with good biomechanics and allowing the horse to go well… they ride in a way that basically forces the horse to go super slow, yes breeders have bred for that slow-legged lope, but still.

@Kirikou

But aside from the one-handed rein thing and the bling, aren’t the biomechanics pretty similar? Isn’t it still about being soft, balanced, and riding in a way that allows the horse to go well?

If you watch a truly good horseman/woman - maybe the old Vaquero style? Where they truly understood that good biomechanics and the horse moving well meant it stayed upright and safe on it’s feet when traversing rough country… and they use a western style saddle because, many reasons. Being able to rope, wrap around the horn, carry saddle bags or tools, and just the general extra seat security.

Honestly I think the “divide” is simply a man-made construct designed to make one rider feel superior to another. Who can outride whom? That sort of thing.

[Foxglove]

As someone who just last year at this time decided to switch (almost completely) from English (H/J, Dressage, Fox Hunting, Side Saddle, saddle seat) to Western (Ranch Riding, but aspire to low level reining and cow work) --I can tell you there is a whopping-lot of difference.

For me, biggest difficulty is my seat (posture in the saddle) --I am constantly reminded by my very successful and excellent trainer Savannah White https://www.facebook.com/savannah.white.7545 To “sit on my pockets.” As a long time fox hunter, I have a preference for a bit of a “chair seat.” Nope, not riding my Western trained horse Bob. That puts too much weight on his forehand which he needs lighter for what we do.

Next is hands: Bob rides on a “looped” rein --not quite as looped as Western Pleasure, but still not contact with the bit. Bob knows what to do from my legs and seat --and (almost never) my hands --except for slight left to right movement sometimes a lift to cue tighter turns --like a spin (although Bob does not spin, he does an absolutely correct turn, just not as fast as a true spin).

Some issues with shoulders --need to be straight but maybe sightly behind the vertical --definitely NOT leaning forward EXCEPT to cue an extended trot or canter --then Bob lengthens his stride.

Head is about the same --chin up, looking where I’m going.

Hand is always low enough that my little finger can touch Bob’s mane.

Feet, back more of a straight leg, although in Dressage I rode with a nearly straight leg too. Definitely longer leg than I ever rode H/J or fox hunting --OH --if I am truly roping (don’t know that I will ever get that far) or cutting, I need to take my stirrups up one more hole.

I always wear spurs, although I rarely need them -Bob pretty much moves off calf pressure.

As to why calf-roping? As much a tradition as Fox Hunting —I always hunted live with only a few drag hunts in my many years. At my level and gender, I aspire to do “break away” roping --my rope has a plastic piece that, should I ever actually rope a live critter, the break away hondo separates --no harm to critter.

And as to trail riding? I do that generally in my Western saddle regardless of what horse I take --it is easier to mount (I’m old) using the horn.

And one last thing: WP --my Granddaughter loved Western Pleasure --what I learned watching her for 10 years was that the best WP horses are bred for the job and have a low head carriage from the time they are born. Second, the training is no more “cruel” than what I have personally seen in the dressage ring. Every discipline has its bad apples, but the kids who rode WP with my granddaughter loved their WP horses and cared for them every bit as much as the kids who ride English. I have ridden her WP horse (sadly he died at 26 last June) and frankly, that slow canter is s m o o t h! I can easily see why some people prefer to ride WP. In all honesty, I’d ride her WP horse any day of the week over the contesting horses that have to be blind folded to lead into the ring. Every discipline has its bad apples --as I said.

[FjordBCRF]

When I was showing AQH’s on a local circuit and was looking to retire my mare and was horse shopping, I test rode one that was trained entirely off the spurs. My test ride left me laughing so hard because I just could.not.ride.that.horse in any way that made sense to him So even IN the western pleasure horse world, there are VERY different philosophies of training/aids/all that.

[fivestrideline]

Ah yes, a spur stop is NOT a surprise I like!

“Oh he’s got a spur stop btw!”

Me, face in the dirt: “no kidding”

[FjordBCRF]

It just felt like everything I knew was backwards, upside down, and opposite of what that horse knew. Im glad for the experience, but I am a no thank you on all that!

[2DogsFarm]

@Foxglove

“sit on my pockets.”

I’ve heard this from both Hunter & Dressage trainers over the years. It’s biomechanics.
Meant to get your tailbone tucked so your back isn’t arched or collapsed forward.

{zipping flamesuit} The artificial WP shuffling jog with no bend to knee or hock & 4-beat lope are travesties that have become fashion.
I’ve been told repeatedly they are"hard to train".
Yes, they should be! They’re unnatural.
Any horse, at liberty, may show these slow-legged gaits, but not for any extended length of time.
To show them for repeated circuits of an arena screams Artifice! to me.

Every discipline seems to have a clique where the horse is crammed into an Ideal that goes against free & natural movement.
(steps down off soapbox)

[Cowboy_Girl]

There is no divide unless one gets into the arena only disciplines - western pleasure, reining and saddle seat.
For horses that do athletic things - jumping, dressage, ranch work, foxhunting, polo, trail riding, it really is just a change in tack. The aids are the aids and when properly taught to the horse and applied by the rider the horse understands. Which is what all the great classical riding schools have always taught.
I have had many horses that did all of these things. Once I did them all in one month. I school and train with all the things in my tool box and that can lead to some interesting combinations of tack at schooling shows.
The culture around the different styles/disciplines of riding is a human social construct not a training issue. And that varies greatly around the country. And sometimes can be very petty and mean.

[endlessclimb]

I used to think they were hard to train until I saw one get trained that was bred to do it. It came 100% naturally to that horse. He doesn’t know “fast” if his life depended on it.

@FjordBCRF yes on the spur training! I got the privilege of riding a finished western pleasure horse and experienced the world’s slowest run-away when I had NO IDEA how to get him to stop, and he just kept upshifting gears until we were just slow-loping around with me laughing hysterically.

[ParadoxFarm]

@fivestrideline

“Oh he’s got a spur stop btw!”

Me, face in the dirt: “no kidding”

snort (So, true!)

[Bluey]

@Obsidian_Fire

If you watch a truly good horseman/woman - maybe the old Vaquero style? Where they truly understood that good biomechanics and the horse moving well meant it stayed upright and safe on it’s feet when traversing rough country… and they use a western style saddle because, many reasons. Being able to rope, wrap around the horn, carry saddle bags or tools, and just the general extra seat security.

Honestly I think the “divide” is simply a man-made construct designed to make one rider feel superior to another. Who can outride whom? That sort of thing.

Maybe that old Vaquero style was not so good long ago?
Don Dodge, that won against old style vaqueros at their own full in the bridle game, used to say one reason TX cowboys were coming West and beating vaqueros was because varquero on the bridle were so stiff, compared with the limber TX cow horses.

Eventually that changed, up to a point, up in the bridle tended to make for stiff horses, see the older drawings and paintings.

There are very many differences in all the eye is trained to see in all disciplines.
Cross training is a great way to learn that there is not one size fits all.
All disciplines tend to have their own idiosyncratic ways, some times antagonistic to other disciplines.
Differences are ok, as long as no one is harmed.

[FjordBCRF]

@endlessclimb

I had NO IDEA how to get him to stop, and he just kept upshifting gears until we were just slow-loping around with me laughing hysterically.

I couldn’t get this guy to GO

He went beautifully when the trainer was on him! At the time to me, it felt like I was being told to sit very still and very specifically do very specific cues…but it just wasn’t happening hahaha. Im sure if you’re used to it its fine, but that was too steep of a learning curve for me at that point, and I didn’t like how it all felt truthfully.

[findeight]

Have to say, IMO and in my experience. Sometimes the western saddle is a good choice for beginners with the handle and easier on/off. Personally seen it used by more than a few H/J trainers to break colts and deal with really bad actors. It is a valid choice depending on the circumstances…and they dam sure are easier to get on with as opposed to finding something to stand on for vertically challenged riders.

[poltroon]

Good riding is good riding.

You will see poor riding in both kinds of saddles.

Dressage and show jumping share a common tradition and training style. Western riding trains the horse off of different cues and wants the horses to travel differently.

I am not a fan of show western pleasure or of AQHA english show styles. For me, those particular approaches diminish the athleticism of the horse instead of developing and enhancing it. By contrast, reining and cutting trainers are developing very light, athletic horses - athletic in a different way than a dressage horse, but still interesting to me. Good horsemen are good horsemen and there’s much to learn from different disciplines, for getting a larger toolbox.

And there are people who just have different saddles for different days.

Me, I’m the weirdo who takes my pony to the local barrel racing in my dressage saddle.

In California we’ve tended to have more cross-pollination between the best western and english horsemen, with even a few that have been successful at both at elite levels.