@poltroon Our 4-H Saddle Club is welcoming of all breeds and disciplines and tack. Below is my granddaughter, riding a Percheron, in an English hunt saddle, running barrels --which FYI --she won with an amazing time of 17 seconds.
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It’s been nice to see Ranch riding get more popular. The ranch horses go more much more naturally than the pleasure horses.
Also, Working Equitation which has Portuguese roots ANY tack goes as long as you are dressed to match it. I love WE. From what I have seen in my region, is it’s very inclusive and much less cliquey than other disciplines.
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I don’t think it’s a black and white kinda thing. It can be everything from just the tack to an entire lifestyle. Personally, I’m not a western person in either regards.
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I’m not either. To me, they’ve taken a wonderfully versatile horse and completely ruined it by breeding them to travel like an automaton on slow-mo. Luckily, I’m nobody and nobody cares about my opinion.
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Thanks Bluey, I wasn’t sure what actual term to use when I made my post.
There are a lot of differences and a lot of similarities. Western balance is not that different than dressage but dressage and jumping balance are more different. Jumping is more of a forward seat with shorter stirrups and most people have more issues going from a jumping discipline to a dressage discipline than individuals have going from dressage to western or visa versa.
Dressage and jumping are more similar in rein use - using primarily direct rein, where western disciplines tend to use neck reining (you can see some direct reining/neck reining mix in some disciplines such as barrel racing).
Some individuals find the western saddle more comfortable due to body configuration whereas some find english saddles more comfortable. I knew an individuals with bad knees that had to ride in an english saddle with shorter stirrups so as not to bother his knees to much and other who were the opposite.
As far as culture, goes, it depends on where you are. Where I grew up, we did English and Western equitation/hunter/pleasure. The “bad guys” were racing and dressage who “abused” their horses.
Dressage - not really sure where that came from other than no one personally knew any dressage riders and none rode at the barn I rode at as a child.
Racing - that barn was built on the backs of race horses and the barn owner/racehorse owner/trainer was not the …um…best horseman…so that’s where that came from.
The comments about English or Western riding (depending on which side you are on) come from the same place as above - either ignorance or knowing only a small portion of that world and that small portion happening to be a bad portion.
Much of the basics are the same if you tend to ride off seat and leg, though some cues are taught a bit differently (inside leg vs outside leg to ask for a canter on a specific lead).
EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hJJmLG30V6c
Love videos like this that show how similar the riding is
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Since I started as an English rider, even in the SW and starting race and ranch colts I always used my old trusty Stubben Rex, then a western saddle for later training, so horses were used to both saddles and flank cinch and dragging logs, etc.
An English saddle just felt more with the horse and secure for me, just as a western one feels to those used to them.
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you are talking about our first horse who came from a long line of English discipline stock, many champions … bought horse as long yearling then put her into training with the breeder.
This horse the closest she came to English was in working Hunter
She was a highly respected Western Pleasure horse, won many awards
Trainer said she was a natural Western horse
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As I read your post (great answer) it reminded me of what I read in this coth article.
Correct riding is correct riding.
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@poltroon @aussie_2020 Exactly so. Good riders have feel, balance, timing and empathy with their horse regardless of the tack they use. The skills are transferable.
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A demo of this sentiment…
https://youtu.be/rqyV9kGQpEc
though I would say the “western” rider seems a much more sympathetic and subtle rider
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100% agree on both. Love to see horses and riders doing a job and in harmony.
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Could one argue the same about passage in dressage? Just because a horse can do that, should it be drilled and performed in competitions? Is it more accepted because it’s fancier or prettier to watch?
What about the various gaits in saddle seat? (Which I’m woefully uneducated about).
What about galloping over miles of terrain and jumping huge, solid obstacles?
We ask horses to do things they CAN do, but probably aren’t going to go out and do themselves all the time.
And as someone who owns a Western pleasure bred horse and has owned several (and shown a few), mine have always had no issue jogging. In fact, they prefer it to trotting out. Now, the exaggerated lope that’s shown in the WP ring is abysmal and I’ll never understand it. The horses are already bred to lope slow and cadenced. My gelding can lope and has no issues doing it, it’s how he moves and he’s in no hurry. But I never ask him to go as absurdly slow as the show horses. THAT is definitely man-made and done so that WP “trainers” can stay in business, IMO.
But yeah. I think this opens up the argument that pretty much everything we ask horses to do when competing, especially at higher levels of competition, is “artificial” in some respects.
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Yes and let’s leave it at that. This entire thread feels like a very intentional trap to try and create conflict that has been avoided thus far. The idea that an actual trainer has no idea about differences between disciplines is ludicrous to me. Let’s rise above getting pulled into the what abouts and comparison game.
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Fair enough, but just to be clear—I wasn’t trying to bait anyone into a comparison war. What is frustrating is how quickly this thread jumped to that conclusion when my original point was about the oversimplification I’m hearing locally. Around here (4Hers and prospective students asking for beginner lessons, etc), people talk about “English” and “Western” as if they’re these completely opposite, incompatible worlds. That’s the mindset I was questioning—not asking anyone to rank disciplines.
Frankly, I find it far more useful to look at the differences between disciplines , not broad categories. In my mind, dressage and reining have a lot more in common—philosophically and in terms of goals—than eventing and saddle seat breed classes do, even though the latter are both labeled “English.”
There doesn’t seem to be much consensus in this thread either—some folks are saying you can do just about anything in any tack, and that’s great (honestly closer to where I land—though I won’t be jumping a friend’s cutting QH on a trail ride in his tack again… especially not while wearing a button-down shirt. Let’s just say I wasn’t planning to flash his entire extended family on that trail ride, ahem). But others are emphasizing deep-rooted differences in philosophies, cultures, balance, etc. So… I’m still a bit confused, to be honest.
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I’ve rode both competitively and I’ll say, there is a definite difference. So here it goes, with hopes I don’t get crucified later.
Western is very much ‘the horse is wholly responsible for itself from the get go’, whereas English is “connection and lightness of aids’. This does not mean English horses don’t have autonomy nor does this mean western doesn’t care about connection or lightness.
However, the training styles are vastly different no matter how much you want to argue that biomechanically they should be the same. English riders tend to have a more connected hand and leg, whereas western really likes a good connected seat. They prefer a looser leg on the sides and use them as correction or direction rather than a solid, ‘hey I’m right here’. They also tend to be more loose in their lower bodies versus an English rider who is taught to have a strong leg, and a fluid upper body.
When it comes to training, from an early start western riders want their horses to think on their own. And if you consider that, it is because many of their horses (at least in my world) are ranch/cow horses. When we are running down a cow, or loping though bogs, there’s no time to dictate a movement. That horse needs the confidence to ride forwards and get itself out of trouble. Meanwhile, the English horse is taught to connect and look for its rider to help guide it through situations. It is looking for a soft contact in the mouth and leans into the pressure of the rider’s legs.
None of this is wrong nor is it across the board. I ride both, and I have met very independent English horses that are there for their rider, and I’ve met absolutely incompetent western horses that need your presence every step of the way. However, across the board I have seen these differences through many trainers.
I think the idea that tack is tack can be true. There’s no reason you can’t ride your ranch or barrel horse in an English saddle and go jump. Honestly, it’s great for them. And there’s no reason you can’t put your warmblood in a western saddle and go sort cattle. Honestly, it’s great for them. But the debate comes down to who’s a better horseman and I think that argument is unfair. I have met great horseman in both disciplines and some awful ones too.
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Thanks, cedarlake —this is exactly the kind of insight I was hoping would come out of the thread. I really appreciate how clearly you laid out the differences without turning it into a value judgment.
I’m totally with you on the “a good horseman is a good horseman” point—that was actually part of what got me thinking in the first place. And I’ve also seen some very self-sufficient fox-hunting “English” horses and Western Pleasure horses that couldn’t walk on a trail outside of flat arena, and vice versa. The variation within each world is fascinating to me.
I think part of where I was getting stuck is that, while the goals of good riding seem broadly similar—balance, responsiveness, autonomy, harmony—the methods and expectations, especially early on, can differ quite a bit, like you said. I’m still working out how much of that is culture, how much is function, and how much is just tradition.
Anyway, thank you for taking the time to break it down!
I think that both things can be true- a good rider is a good rider and there is a “culture” associated with different disciplines. And really, it breaks down further than just English vrs Western. If another horse person asked you what you ride, unless you’re a dead beginner, you are most like going to say something more specific like I ride hunters or I ride reiners.
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I will say many of it is tradition and looks you want in the show pen. I’ve only seen cultural differences when you start breaking down the vaquero life style.
Reining and cow horse want that low head set so they are going to train for that as they believe the horse is lifting the back and coming up under themselves. English wants a more natural neck and lifting. Honestly though, western is coming a long way from this long and low version. I’ve heard plenty of top level cutters and vaquero riders really looking for the biomechanics and technical training you see in top level dressage.
Reining and WP won’t change as these horses are specifically bred to ride low (just look where their neck attaches into their chest).
But to put it simply, it’s every and nothing at the same time. Which is why the debate and conversations will continue. But I enjoyed the conversation! Thank you for asking the question as I was saying to myself how I could see the differences now that I’m back to jumping.
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You nailed the primary philosophical difference between most western disciplines and most English disciplines with this paragraph. As someone who made the transition into the ranch/cow/reining horse world from a mostly hunter/equitation/dressage base, the biggest continuing struggle for me is letting go of my hard-wired reflex to micromanage my horses while riding.
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