Congenital Issue in Puppy

[Anon1234]

Obviously under an alter due to the nature of this question…

We purchased a purebred puppy from a reputable breeder (AKC Breeder of Merit, actively involved in showing both conformation and performance etc.) this summer. Noticed some “somewhat weird” things going on with puppy when we brought pup home, but didn’t really think too much of it as pup is happy and playful etc.

Anyway, long story short at a recent vet appointment our vet pointed out concern for these “somewhat weird” things and referred us to a specialist. Specialist has diagnosed puppy with a rare congenital disorder that will affect quality of life for the pup but should not shorten pup’s life. The disorder is most often linked to a recessive gene in dogs, though environmental factors during gestation may also be a cause.

Obviously, I am devastated. The pup will not be able to do what we had planned to do (performance events mostly although we were considering conformation and possibly having a litter, but that obviously is ruled out), and will need additional maintenance and monitoring throughout life.

So, my question is what should I expect or ask from the breeder? Unfortunately, we did not receive a contract with a guarantee- I can’t for the life of me remember not signing something, but I don’t have it. I have contacted the breeder about the diagnosis, however have received rather “cool” responses- “the pup I have is fine” “I’ve never heard of this with this breed” etc. Breeder has diagnosis paperwork, and really questioned the genetic linked diagnosis. I guess that is my biggest concern- if the lineage keeps on with this disorder as a possibility in future litters… The rest is just heartbreak for me.

How do I navigate this situation? Breeders out there, have you had something like this happen? What was your ideal resolution?

Thanks for the help!

[Justmyluck]

Several states have what is call a pet lemon law. I’d research the laws in your area. You typically have up to a year to file a claim for congenital issues. The problem is that you will most likely be unable to keep the animal if you do file a complaint.

[rugbygirl]

Sorry about your pup. have you thought about what would make you happiest? Do you want the breeder to take the dog back? Keep the pup but acquire another? Just have recognition that the breeder produced a detective pup?

I don’t think there’s an “of course” from the breeder’s end on what to do, and even though they are being cool, they might be open to a variety of resulolutions. In person would work MUCH better, once you have some idea what you are thinking would be satisfactory.

[Cascades]

Your breeder should take the puppy back and offer either a replacement or a refund. That would be what I would expect from a reputable breeder, anyway.

If you want to keep the puppy, that’s a little different. The breeders I know would probably offer a discount on a puppy from a future litter in this scenario, but I don’t know that that’s standard protocol.

[2tempe]

OP - sorry to hear about your problems with the puppy! I have a couple random thoughts:
If the breeder has a website, is there something on there that discusses what type of health guarantee you get? That might be helpful if you have no document.

Is there a guarantee that is typical of your breed? IE some breeds may cover anything EXCEPT a or b. Others may say something like guaranteed against X for a specified period of time. This information may help you figure out an approach to the breeder.

It may be too late for this but I would think that it is HIGHLY unusual not to have some type of sale agreement and related paperwork from a breeder. Could you say “hey, I don’t seem to have any of this, could you send me a copy?”

It does seem you are at the mercy of the breeder at this point. At the same time, you would think they wouldn’t want to risk their reputation. But echoing above, first you need to decide what you want, then figure out how hard you are willing to push to get it.

Not a dog issue, but I once had a realtor listing my house for sale and he made some poor ethical decisions in the process, which cost me money. I skipped the legal system but after getting my hands on the relevant realtor rules, guidelines, I threatened to file a complaint with the Realtor Board. That got his attention and we reached a $ resolution. Something like this may be possible.

States with puppy lemon laws:
https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/pet-lemon-laws.aspx

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Anon1234;8909743]
Obviously under an alter due to the nature of this question…

We purchased a purebred puppy from a reputable breeder (AKC Breeder of Merit, actively involved in showing both conformation and performance etc.) this summer. Noticed some “somewhat weird” things going on with puppy when we brought pup home, but didn’t really think too much of it as pup is happy and playful etc.

Anyway, long story short at a recent vet appointment our vet pointed out concern for these “somewhat weird” things and referred us to a specialist. Specialist has diagnosed puppy with a rare congenital disorder that will affect quality of life for the pup but should not shorten pup’s life. The disorder is most often linked to a recessive gene in dogs, though environmental factors during gestation may also be a cause.

Obviously, I am devastated. The pup will not be able to do what we had planned to do (performance events mostly although we were considering conformation and possibly having a litter, but that obviously is ruled out), and will need additional maintenance and monitoring throughout life.

So, my question is what should I expect or ask from the breeder? Unfortunately, we did not receive a contract with a guarantee- I can’t for the life of me remember not signing something, but I don’t have it. I have contacted the breeder about the diagnosis, however have received rather “cool” responses- “the pup I have is fine” “I’ve never heard of this with this breed” etc. Breeder has diagnosis paperwork, and really questioned the genetic linked diagnosis. I guess that is my biggest concern- if the lineage keeps on with this disorder as a possibility in future litters… The rest is just heartbreak for me.

How do I navigate this situation? Breeders out there, have you had something like this happen? What was your ideal resolution?

Thanks for the help![/QUOTE]

What exactly is the problem?

It is difficult to give you any guidence until we know that.

[Anon1234]

Thank you for the advice!

Firstly, I really really do not want to have to return pup. The older dog and pup have really bonded and pup is also a pet and part of the family (even though we have only had pup 3 months or so.)

I looked at the puppy lemon law website, and neither state involved (breeder is 8+ hours away) have laws that pertain to private breeders. Although, I’m sure if one were to bring a case in court there are other laws that would apply- not saying we want to do this.

I guess I am still kind of in the phase of not really knowing what would make me happy or what is fair. Obviously, I want my puppy to be healthy (I completely understand that this is not me thinking rationally), but the other part of it too is that I do care about the breed and don’t want other people to have to deal with this disorder. So, yes, for the breeder to acknowledge and take steps to investigate would be a big thing for me. We would eventually want to add another dog to our pack, but I would say we are a couple years off from this.

2tempe- Breeder does not have a website, so I don’t know about asking for the contract. I’m definitely kicking myself for not being more diligent and asking for this, but we have worked indirectly with this breeder before so that could be why I didn’t question.

The breed does have a genetic disease that is prevalent- both stud and bitch were tested for that and we were provided with the negative/clear test results. What our pup has been diagnosed with has been anecdotally linked to this breed (I have found two references on dated articles), but the breed is pretty rare so finding information is difficult.

I guess I am just looking for some rational opinions and what others would do in this situation, because I don’t feel like I am thinking about it rationally.

[Anon1234]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8909948]
What exactly is the problem?

It is difficult to give you any guidence until we know that.[/QUOTE]

Houndhill- I will send you a PM. I don’t feel comfortable posting all of the details due to the rarity.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Cascades;8909774]
Your breeder should take the puppy back and offer either a replacement or a refund. That would be what I would expect from a reputable breeder, anyway.

If you want to keep the puppy, that’s a little different. The breeders I know would probably offer a discount on a puppy from a future litter in this scenario, but I don’t know that that’s standard protocol.[/QUOTE]

If this were me, I would take the puppy back and refund money or next available puppy. I would also be fine with owner keeping puppy if they wished to and again either refund money or provide another puppy at time of family’s choosing. I live in a state with strict puppy lemon laws. But, my husband and I decided a long time ago, that while we would take any puppy back at any point, we wouldn’t require a family to give up a beloved pet in order to get a refund. My mentor does the same.

[Cascades]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8909995]
If this were me, I would take the puppy back and refund money or next available puppy. I would also be fine with owner keeping puppy if they wished to and again either refund money or provide another puppy at time of family’s choosing. I live in a state with strict puppy lemon laws. But, my husband and I decided a long time ago, that while we would take any puppy back at any point, we wouldn’t require a family to give up a beloved pet in order to get a refund. My mentor does the same.[/QUOTE]

You sound like a wonderful breeder.

I don’t breed and never will - too much heartache and too much responsibility for me. My hat is off to those that take it on and strive to do it the right way.

[Houndhill]

Agree with Marshfield - I’d offer a full refund of purchase price, assume the new owner would like to keep the puppy, but if not, would of course take the puppy back.

Would offer the person first option of next litter- might or might not be a charge, depending on cost of diagnosing and maintaining this puppy.

Good luck with pup, sure hope it will work out for the best.

[Bluey]

My dog is now about 11, went to pick her up at 11 weeks from the breeder.

I wanted a specific dog of that breed for agility, there were two puppies that were picks of that litter for performance dogs, the breeder picked the nicest one and I was to get the other one.

A few days before I went to pick her up, the breeder told me she had changed her mind and I cold have our first pick, because she was too little, she didn’t think she may grow enough for the higher heights classes she wanted her for.

So, I got my pick after all.
Brought her home, took her next day to our vet to check over, as per our contract and our vet said, there is something wrong with a hock.

Sure enough, after a few days, she was limping on it and we had a specialist look at the hock, that thought exploratory surgery would not help, she thought it may be a missing ligament.

I let the breeder know, that non-chalantly said to just bring her back and pick another.

No way I was going to do that, you ever get a puppy, you are not going to give it up, what an idea!
So, we did all the therapy my puppy needed, crate time when she was limping, then rehab on hills, medication, etc.

She had always favored that leg, but she did get thru basic obedience, rally and agility classes, went to therapy dog classes, etc.
We had to give training hard for any competition up, because we never knew when she would start limping and so be disqualified, so didn’t go there.
I have ramps to her recliner and the bed, so she doesn’t jump, just in case.
She has been the best dog ever, sure happy that she is mine and lucky that leg has never become worse, still limps and carries it at times, but doesn’t seem in serious pain.

OP, I don’t think there is any good solution there, if competing is important, you may have to give your puppy up and find another.
If you have room for one more, you can raise this one for a companion and get another later for competition.

Or, like I did, just do what your current puppy can manage to do and find other to do than the competition your puppy won’t be suitable for.

Whatever you decide, it is your life, your puppy will be fine wherever it has a good home, make whatever decision is best all around, for your situation.

[Sswor]

No advice, just wanted to say I am sorry about your puppy.

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=Anon1234;8909743]
We purchased a purebred puppy from a reputable breeder (AKC Breeder of Merit, actively involved in showing both conformation and performance etc.) this summer.[/QUOTE]

A slight aside. AKC is a dog registry. They do very little to no monitoring of breeders.

I’ve always relied on a breed’s national club as a starting place when both researching breeders as well as genetic concerns for a breed.

Have you looked at the national breed registry web page to see if your pup’s diagnosis is a possible genetic concern?

Sorry about your puppy. They get into your heart so fast and that can make these kinds of decisions so very hard. I’d be thinking what my expectations are of the breeder and if you want a new dog, keep this dog and get a reduced price new dog or will you be happy with no action from the breeder at all. Without knowing the breed and the issue, hard to know what to expect of the breeder but I might be leaning toward finding a different breeder for future litters

[saje]

I would also contact the breed’s national club, and let them deal with the AKC. A Breeder Of Merit doesn’t actually have to do a whole lot to apply, but it is definitely a selling point when buyers are looking at the AKC site for contacts:

AKC BREEDER OF MERIT REQUIREMENTS
The following must be met in order to be accepted into the program:

-Has a history of at least 5 years involvement with AKC events.
-Earned AKC Conformation, Performance or Companion event titles on a minimum of 4 dogs from AKC litters they bred/co-bred.
-Member of an AKC club.
-Certifies that applicable health screens are performed on your breeding stock as recommended by the Parent Club.
-Demonstrates a commitment to ensuring 100% of the puppies produced are AKC registered.

Take a look through the list of the board members though on the club’s site - if the breeder is on it you may unfortunately get nowhere fast

[S1969]

I agree that without knowing what is wrong with the puppy, it’s hard to know how to respond. I have heard some crazy stories from both sides of the game.

What Marshfield suggests is pretty common - refund the price of the puppy OR return the puppy. But it also requires there to be an actual diagnosis from a real vet; not a “puppy seems a bit wonky” kind of thing.

I know right now of a situation where a person was given a bitch for breeding purposes, and then two years later has had some thyroid issues and wants a new breeding bitch from the breeder. The breeder had both the sire and dam tested for thyroid issues as well as a number of other related dogs and puppies - and all were normal. In his opinion, and that of his vet - this is not a congenital issue. (Furthermore, since he didn’t sell this puppy; he can’t refund the price, nor does the owner want to give up the bitch…but she is complaining about the loss of future breeding and the money that went into showing the bitch…)

Needless to say…it can get messy.

[Anon1234]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8910197]
A slight aside. AKC is a dog registry. They do very little to no monitoring of breeders.

I’ve always relied on a breed’s national club as a starting place when both researching breeders as well as genetic concerns for a breed.

Have you looked at the national breed registry web page to see if your pup’s diagnosis is a possible genetic concern?

Sorry about your puppy. They get into your heart so fast and that can make these kinds of decisions so very hard. I’d be thinking what my expectations are of the breeder and if you want a new dog, keep this dog and get a reduced price new dog or will you be happy with no action from the breeder at all. Without knowing the breed and the issue, hard to know what to expect of the breeder but I might be leaning toward finding a different breeder for future litters :([/QUOTE]

I know that AKC really means nothing and that they do not regulate breeders or what quality of dog is registered.

We know what issues we are normally dealing with this breed, and are members of the national club. There is nothing on the website discussing this disorder. The research on the disorder is sparse to begin with, though I have found 2 references to it associated with this breed (genetic) though they are quite old books/papers. I had to really dig to find what I have found. I don’t mind sharing details via PM.

I do plan to reach out to the club’s member in charge of health regarding the disorder.

Thank you- it’s been a tough couple weeks.

[Anon1234]

[QUOTE=S1969;8910248]
I agree that without knowing what is wrong with the puppy, it’s hard to know how to respond. I have heard some crazy stories from both sides of the game.

What Marshfield suggests is pretty common - refund the price of the puppy OR return the puppy. But it also requires there to be an actual diagnosis from a real vet; not a “puppy seems a bit wonky” kind of thing.

I know right now of a situation where a person was given a bitch for breeding purposes, and then two years later has had some thyroid issues and wants a new breeding bitch from the breeder. The breeder had both the sire and dam tested for thyroid issues as well as a number of other related dogs and puppies - and all were normal. In his opinion, and that of his vet - this is not a congenital issue. (Furthermore, since he didn’t sell this puppy; he can’t refund the price, nor does the owner want to give up the bitch…but she is complaining about the loss of future breeding and the money that went into showing the bitch…)

Needless to say…it can get messy.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the response.

We do have a diagnosis from a specialist and the breeder has been supplied with a copy. In their opinion this is a congenital issue. I’m willing to share additional details via PM if you would like.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Anon1234;8910293]
Thank you for the response.

We do have a diagnosis from a specialist and the breeder has been supplied with a copy. In their opinion this is a congenital issue. I’m willing to share additional details via PM if you would like.[/QUOTE]

Yes I would be interested. Health issues are important in all breeds because they probably affect many more breeds than they are “common” in.

[beowulf]

Well, it is hard to give advice without knowing what the congenital defect is. Do you mind PMing me also?

However, you mention it is A. possibly recessive B. possibly environmental and B. not prevalent in your breed of choice.

Those three things in mind, I would not fault the breeder or think she is producing ‘defective’ litters. However, it is important that she knows that a puppy from her pairing has the disease, so that going forward she can use practical judgment if she wishes to repeat the pairing. It’s great that you informed her; her response, however, has me a little underwhelmed. I think it is appropriate for her to either offer to take back the puppy for a different one, or give you a discount on a future puppy. Since you already love the puppy, I am not sure what your options are WRT remuneration.

I was in a similar situation, years and years ago. His issue was EPI, did not crop up until he was about a year. Kept him and he was the best damn dog and friend I have ever had and will ever have. Miss him everyday… he was such a wonderful dog that my parents went back and bought his littermate’s offspring.