Congenital Issue in Puppy

[Anon1234]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8910464]
Well, it is hard to give advice without knowing what the congenital defect is. Do you mind PMing me also?

However, you mention it is A. possibly recessive B. possibly environmental and B. not prevalent in your breed of choice.

Those three things in mind, I would not fault the breeder or think she is producing ‘defective’ litters. However, it is important that she knows that a puppy from her pairing has the disease, so that going forward she can use practical judgment if she wishes to repeat the pairing. It’s great that you informed her; her response, however, has me a little underwhelmed. I think it is appropriate for her to either offer to take back the puppy for a different one, or give you a discount on a future puppy. Since you already love the puppy, I am not sure what your options are WRT remuneration.

I was in a similar situation, years and years ago. His issue was EPI, did not crop up until he was about a year. Kept him and he was the best damn dog and friend I have ever had and will ever have. Miss him everyday… he was such a wonderful dog that my parents went back and bought his littermate’s offspring.[/QUOTE]

I will send you a PM. Thank you!

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8909995]
If this were me, I would take the puppy back and refund money or next available puppy. I would also be fine with owner keeping puppy if they wished to and again either refund money or provide another puppy at time of family’s choosing. I live in a state with strict puppy lemon laws. But, my husband and I decided a long time ago, that while we would take any puppy back at any point, we wouldn’t require a family to give up a beloved pet in order to get a refund. My mentor does the same.[/QUOTE]

This is what a reputable breeder would do. And, if there was even a chance of the condition being heritable-- stop using the involved dogs as breeding stock unless she could guarantee the problem wouldn’t be repeated.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8910875]
This is what a reputable breeder would do. And, if there was even a chance of the condition being heritable-- stop using the involved dogs as breeding stock unless she could guarantee the problem wouldn’t be repeated.[/QUOTE]

Generally, especially with something rare–which is what this likely is–the recommendation is to not repeat the breeding, but not necessarily remove both parents from the breeding pool

[Pancakes]

I’m curious as to what the issue is. Can you PM Me?

If the breeder is burying their head in the sand over this, there’s not much you can do. I think they should offer you another puppy or the value of the puppy, in general, but you’ve gotten a lot of good advice from others.

[S1969]

Hmm…tough call based on the PM. I think a really good breeder would offer to refund the price of the puppy and thank you for informing them, even if there was no chance of the condition being congenital. Particularly because of the young age of the puppy.

If the breeder doesn’t do that; I’m not sure what I would do…I probably would not sue or pursue a “lemon law” for a variety of reasons, but I would lose all respect for the breeder.

If the breeder were to be interested and concerned, but possibly unable to refund the price…I might be ok with it; I know that a lot of breeders don’t really have a ton of money lying around, even if they are great breeders. It would bother me more that the breeder seemed unconcerned or unwilling to consider the possibility of a congenital link - even if it couldn’t have been predicted or screened/detected.

I don’t think I’dwant another puppy from this breeder if they weren’t sincerely concerned that your puppy has a serious health issue…so if that was the only option I’d probably decline.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. I got a puppy 15 years ago to show and it grew way over the breed standard. The breeder offered to take him back and refund my money but I couldn’t imagine giving him up. She was worried that if I couldn’t show him I might place him in another home, or be unhappy…etc. I gained a lot of respect for her (and, I think she did for me as well)…because of how we handled the situation, and we have had a very good relationship over the years. He’s still with me at 15 1/2, and was a great pet even though he never made it to the show ring.

If I ever breed dogs, I’d like to be known as one of those breeders.

Good luck with the puppy.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8911131]
Generally, especially with something rare–which is what this likely is–the recommendation is to not repeat the breeding, but not necessarily remove both parents from the breeding pool[/QUOTE]

I think it depends what the issue is

[vxf111]

I’m assuming this is a pretty serious condition based on the OP

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8911131]
Generally, especially with something rare–which is what this likely is–the recommendation is to not repeat the breeding, but not necessarily remove both parents from the breeding pool[/QUOTE]

As usual, I agree with Marshfield.

It does not depend upon what the issue is, it depends upon what the mode of inheritance is.

In a very rare condition where the mode of inheritance is unknown, odds are, a geneticist would recommend not repeating this particlar breeding be repeated, but not necessarily excluding either parent from the gene pool, if they were bred to other individuals.

Particularly in a breed with a small gene pool.

[D_BaldStockings]

Some issues are polygenic - you have to have several genes each in a certain variation for an anomaly to show up. Additionally some have environmental triggers, with or without the gene matchup, and similar looking metabolic issues can make diagnosis or origin problematic.

Until gene tracking and verification, which for most inherited anomalies that show up later in life there are currently none, and especially the polygene types the scientific community does not recommend a ‘breeding strategy’.

Simply because there is not enough information.

While many breeders will take back or refund, at what point does one feel that an older dog may be presenting with ‘age related’ or ‘lifestyle related’ infirmities or metabolic inadequacies? 8? 10? 12? Later?

And if something is treatable/manageable with medication, and a grandparent developed the illness, but no others in the family have?

Should all those ‘grand-pups’ be removed from a breeding population on the possibility that the genetic component is not only unlikely to recombine but possible -but considered the most important to buyers (though unfound at this point), and genetics are the only thing a breeder is in control of when offering dogs to be raised by others.

Breeders disclose as much information about their dogs as they can, but there is no such thing as a ‘guarantee’ that any animal will be healthy, long-lived and a wonderful companion.

It is terrible when life rolls the dice poorly, but breeders are not in control of the dice. So many seem to think bad genetics can be washed out in a generation or so or simply bred away from.

Sometimes absolutely yes. But sometimes, the information just isn’t there to guide a decision and the person who uses relatives of affected dogs does just as well as those who only breed ‘unaffected families’ because hidden genes are hidden genes, no matter how many generations one goes without uncovering and combining them.

Breeding is a tough game.

Loving animals is always heartbreaking sooner or later.

Condolences on your pup’s problem. I hope there is resolution.

[D_BaldStockings]

Congenital does not mean inherited. It means acquired post-fertilization and developing in utero.

Removing parents of that dog from the gene pool will do nothing to remove the congenital problem from future generations.

Because it is not a genetic issue.

[Anon1234]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8911390]
Congenital does not mean inherited. It means acquired post-fertilization and developing in utero.

Removing parents of that dog from the gene pool will do nothing to remove the congenital problem from future generations.

Because it is not a genetic issue.[/QUOTE]

Not to be difficult, and I appreciate your response, but congenital simply means that the disorder occurred before birth or that the animal was affected since birth. The defect could either be inherited or environmental. I was not trying to make a specific claim of what it is, but only saying what seems to be the most likely causation due to the research I have done.

[vxf111]

I mistook this to be a heritable condition. My misreading

[Anon1234]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8911428]
I mistook this to be a heritable condition. My misreading[/QUOTE]

I have sent you a PM.

[D_BaldStockings]

I appreciate your response; my reply was more to the ‘not breeding these parents will stop the issue’.

There are many issues that will not appear until later in life: a good breeder likely will explore with you what you feel would be an acceptable outcome, since you can’t ‘undo’ what is.

Most are not of the buyer beware attitude; that helps neither dog nor crushed owner nor the breeding/rearing program of the breeder.

Since your breeder knows there is no way to undo the issue, she/he is probably waiting for more input from you and furthering their research on-line. You need to make your wishes known.

Most breeders cannot offer lifetime financial maintenance for a dog’s possible medical issues; the pup price is likely to be the max you could expect.

Again, sorry for you and your pup.

If there is a heritable component, were you aware of that possibility in the breed before you decided to purchase? Had you discussed anything like this or other negatives with the breeder before taking the pup?

Talk is legally binding, though hard to prove.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Anon1234;8911414]
Not to be difficult, and I appreciate your response, but congenital simply means that the disorder occurred before birth or that the animal was affected since birth. The defect could either be inherited or environmental. I was not trying to make a specific claim of what it is, but only saying what seems to be the most likely causation due to the research I have done.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are right.

As a breeder it is important to distinguish between acquired and inherited issues that may present. I will try to restrain myself from assuming congenital is not heritable but acquired, since that is current usage. Just isn’t helpful from a genetic standpoint…

[vxf111]

Now that I know what the issue is, yes it’s serious. Yes it’s known to be heritable in some breeds. I don’t know much about the OP’s breed and it’s not a common breed (but not a dying breed either where there’s literally no gene pool). I, for one, would not want to buy a puppy from a parent who threw such a serious condition that is known to be inherited in other breeds-- even if it’s not yet determined to be inherited in this breed. Small gene pool notwithstanding. To me, this is serious enough that I would not be comfortable. Not unless the breeder could determine a cause in this specific puppy that was not inherited.

Says someone who in her family has 4 ragdoll cats, 3 of which have common heritable defects in the breed and came from breeders who “just didn’t repeat that cross” after initial litters had the defects and didn’t find out until generations later that even outcrossing resulted in the defects being passed on

[Marshfield]

I would also love a PM with the diagnosis

[S1969]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8911439]

Most breeders cannot offer lifetime financial maintenance for a dog’s possible medical issues; the pup price is likely to be the max you could expect.[/QUOTE]

Just want to agree with this - in the even there is ongoing medical costs, it is not realistic to expect the breeder to pay for them (not sure that is what you would want, anyway). In general, a refund and/or a puppy from a future breeding is the standard “guarantee” concept.

I do know a breeder that paid for epilepsy meds for a puppy she sold for its entire lifetime, even though there was no reason to believe that she could have predicted or prevented epilepsy. But, I think that is unusual.

[Incantation]

[QUOTE=S1969;8911739]
I do know a breeder that paid for epilepsy meds for a puppy she sold for its entire lifetime, even though there was no reason to believe that she could have predicted or prevented epilepsy. But, I think that is unusual.[/QUOTE]

There is a very big Mastiff breeder that has been breeding dogs for years that are known to produce epilepsy, so sometimes it is easy to predict. Of course unlike your friend, when confronted she gets nasty, blames the owners, and continues breeding.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Incantation;8911806]
There is a very big Mastiff breeder that has been breeding dogs for years that are known to produce epilepsy, so sometimes it is easy to predict. Of course unlike your friend, when confronted she gets nasty, blames the owners, and continues breeding.[/QUOTE]

That happens to us decades ago.
A friend decided she was going to breed rotties, bought a male and female and was starting to show them.
She convinced us to help her by giving us a wonderful female, that we were to train, show and then let her produce a couple litters, see how good they may be.

She bought her from the at that time top rottie breeder, that was also the director of the rottie club, etc.

She was all she was supposed to be, wonderful to work cattle, could drive from the pasture several sick weaners thru a lot full of them laying down and pen them in the next lot without losing any of them or disturbing those laying around water in the first pen.
The cattle seem to be so relaxed around her and know if she meant to drive them or not and mind her if she did.

We did start showing her in obedience and a friend in conformation, where she won blues, then she started having very bad seizures, the kind that lasted for minutes and were hard to stop.

We finally had those under control with heavy medication, she was doing ok, decided to go on to spay her, she was not going to be bred with that problem.
We also heard that there were at least two, maybe three others in that litter also with serious seizures, but the breeder would not admit that was a problem.

If that had been today, with the internet, well, he could not have denied that too much and would have to be more proactive than he was.
Some seizures are just part of what dogs are, they seem to be prone to them.
Some are clearly the more serious ones and at least partly inherited, when they show up in several puppies in a litter.

As a breeder, well, you really need to do more than ignore those problems.

I don’t know what the OP’s problem is, but if it is possibly inheritable, it would be important to insure no more such puppies are produced.

Now, what to do about the OP’s puppy, that is a whole different question only the OP can answer for herself and her puppy.