Congenital Issue in Puppy

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Incantation;8911806]
There is a very big Mastiff breeder that has been breeding dogs for years that are known to produce epilepsy, so sometimes it is easy to predict. Of course unlike your friend, when confronted she gets nasty, blames the owners, and continues breeding.[/QUOTE]

Well, yes, sometimes breeders continue to breed dogs known to be affected with epilepsy, or that have produced it. In those cases, it wouldn’t be unlikely for the offspring to also be affected, but many of them probably aren’t.

In my friend’s case, there was no reason to believe that there was any concern for epilepsy when planning the breeding, nor that it was actually a genetic issue, because epilepsy is complicated. The issue in this situation also sounds complicated - it can be heritable but it can also be caused by a virus. Tough stuff to predict and/or eliminate.

If I were the breeder in the OP’s case, I’d probably offer to refund the purchase price and would want my own vet/repro specialist to evaluate the medical records and advise me.

It’s hard enough to be a breeder given what they can/cannot control, but it’s even harder when there is speculation in the breed about whether the breeder “did or didn’t” try to control. It is probably worth the money to do this the right way - even if the breeder and/or vet doesn’t think it’s genetic. Because reputation is really important in breeding.

[Obiwan]

I had a very nicely breed lab who ended up with elbow dysplasia. She didn’t start showing any signs until she was 3 or 4. But we went though with all the surgeries and PT afterwards. Eventually when she was 7 her left elbow had deteriorated severely, and her quality of life was severely going down hill. We had started putting her on daily paid meds. After reaching out to her orthopedic surgeon, he offered an experimental surgery that he was working on. We went through with it.

She just turned 12 the other day, and is doing lovely! Isn’t even on any paid meds, just a joins supplement. Providing a home for any dog can be expensive, but especially one who has a know issue. I couldn’t tell you how many thousands and thousands of dollars were put simply towards surgeries. Not to mention recovery care.

I’m not sure what the problem is with your pup, but if it’s one that has the potential to continue to deteriorate, do you have the financial means to do the surgeries that would help? Sometimes the after care is very difficult to. Could you spend 5 weeks carrying your dog outside just to go to the bathroom and keeping them sedated otherwise. If there could be a problem with stairs in the future, do you have a plan in place to avoid stairs?

I’m just throwing out all of these ideas because I’ve spent a lot of time making accommodations for a physically challenged dog. And not just one who is going down hill is the last few years of life. I didn’t really ready anywhere is you had decided to keep or give back the pup, so that’s why I give this information.

Although as most have said, the breeder should do something to try and amend the issues. Have you asked her what your options are with the pup, or just told her about the issue? If she only owns one of the breeding pair, I would contact the other owner and see if they care a little more about the issues. Not that they would give you a pup or money, but contacting them might give your breeder a incentive to work with you for a solution.

[Horsegal984]

Knowing that while this is very rare in the OP’s breed, but from what is recommended in more commonly affected breeds, the recommendation is that both parents be removed from breeding in those breeds. I think the recommendation should be the same here.
This is a severe condition which will prevent this puppy from ever leading a normal life, not just prevent it from doing what the OP had hoped. This would be a challenge for even those who only wanted a pet, because every aspect of the dogs life will have to be managed very carefully. It may also shorten his lifespan considerably.
There is absolutely no treatment that will improve this pup’s quality of life or help his condition. It’s a severe enough condition that I think it would be fair to consider euthanizing the puppy even. Now most people wouldn’t do that, but it would be reasonable to consider it. I do dislike how non-chelant the breeder is being about it.

OP- I’m sorry that you and your pup are going through this.

[Cascades]

Okay, now I’m curious…OP, would you mind PMing me with the diagnosis?

[Obiwan]

Alright, after what horsegal said I’m very intrigued what condition this is. May I have a PM too?

[vxf111]

OP I don’t think revealing the condition will out you. Revealing the breed might

[Bluey]

All I can think is, in Basenjis, Fanconi kidney problems can be serious and any affected should not be bred and probably not the parents.
It is a life long program to manage, some are more affected than others.
I think today you can test for that?

At the time we were considering Basenjis, that was a serious concern, because there were few in the US and so breeders at times took chances with that just to try to have more, hoping to then not bred those affected.
Very questionable decision, when you will have some that will have those problems.

They know so much more today, I am not sure breeders need to go there, take those chances, whatever the possible problems may be.

Similar with horses.

[jetsmom]

What’s the big secret about what the dog has? No one cares enough to track down the breeder. It’s doubtful the breeder is on a horse forum, and so what if they are. As long as you don’t out the breeder you should be fine.

[S1969]

Well, I appreciate that the OP is not publicly stating the breed and issue, because if someone in the breed did any kind of google search, it would definitely come up. It’s an unusual defect and rare in the breed, also potentially caused by a virus in utero.

Anyone who is in the dog breeding/showing world knows it’s a small one - I have worried before about posting issues/questions related to my breed that were far less unusual, and therefore less likely to pop up in a search.

The end result, though, is that this is not common in the breed, and therefore not something the breeder screened for (if there is even a way to do so). But will have an effect on the puppy forever. The question is whether there is an overall “health guarantee” or not. Often you see breeders guarantee “health for 90 days or 6 months…+ guarantees on hips for 3 years.” That way they can back up the congential defects that they screened against (dysplasia) but not be held responsible for random health issues that could present themselves.

Tough call…all around. Jingles to the OP.

[Manni01]

I am following this thread ( I bred some litters in the past) and thought I might add this article as a general information. This is a Finnish Lab which is quite active and my breed did a study with them.
I think their findings are interesting
http://www.mydogdna.com/blog/new-study-canine-breed-disease-heritage-gives-comprehensive-insight-breed-distribution-disease

[Anon1234]

Thank you all for the advice and kind words- it is really appreciated. It has also allowed me to think more rationally about the situation.

As an update, I have actually been in touch with a couple other owners of pups from this litter. One has been diagnosed with the same disease, while another is having some other issues. Again, of course I don’t think there’s was anything nefarious or intentional. My disappointment lies in the reaction. And not being forthcoming about another pup sharing the same diagnosis.

TBH, money is not going to make our pup better. AT this point I want to have the breeder work with the owners of pups from their litter to come up with a solution. Maybe that’s wishful thinking.

I will be sending PMs to those who have requested what the diagnosis is.

[Anon1234]

[QUOTE=jetsmom;8912481]
What’s the big secret about what the dog has? No one cares enough to track down the breeder. It’s doubtful the breeder is on a horse forum, and so what if they are. As long as you don’t out the breeder you should be fine.[/QUOTE]

I’m not worried breeder is on this forum (slim chance of that-they aren’t into horses) or that anyone here would go on a witch hunt. Google does pull this site up in searches, though, and I would prefer not to inadvertently lead to this conversation. I’m not trying to keep secrets- just trying to protect myself and the situation while still getting advice from the valuable members of COTH.

[Anon1234]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8912546]
I am following this thread ( I bred some litters in the past) and thought I might add this article as a general information. This is a Finnish Lab which is quite active and my breed did a study with them.
I think their findings are interesting
http://www.mydogdna.com/blog/new-study-canine-breed-disease-heritage-gives-comprehensive-insight-breed-distribution-disease[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this link! Very interesting- I feel like I may be headed down the rabbit hole tonight…

[Belmont]

[QUOTE=Anon1234;8912600]
I’m not worried breeder is on this forum (slim chance of that-they aren’t into horses) or that anyone here would go on a witch hunt. Google does pull this site up in searches, though, and I would prefer not to inadvertently lead to this conversation. I’m not trying to keep secrets- just trying to protect myself and the situation while still getting advice from the valuable members of COTH.[/QUOTE]

But why not just say what the diagnosis is? Especially if it is prevalent in OTHER breeds as well (which someone stated earlier). You don’t have to share the breed, the state, etc.

We’ve had three pups come in the clinic recently with a few different disorders. We had a Von Willebrand’s pup, in which the owner contact the breeder to let her know, but she decided to keep the pup. Don’t know what the breeder offered her.

We also had a pup come in with a severe hip problem, in which it was referred out to a specialist. They wound up euthing the pup due to poor outcome and quality of life. I believe the owners are currently in a law suite.

Most recently, one of my techs had a wobblers pup. She contacted the breeder and the breeder offered to exchange the puppy. It broke her heart, but she exchanged the puppy and asked not to know what the breeder was going to do with the wobblers puppy. The other puppy was already part of the family, but she couldn’t deal with that severe of a genetic condition or afford the surgery that “might” make it better.

[jetsmom]

Can you say what the medical problem is without disclosing the breed, since by most people’s opinions, it’s rare in your breed, so eople wouldn’t be able to guess.

[Anon1234]

While it is more “common” or has been studied more so in other breeds, it is still a rare disorder in dogs in general-definitely not “prevalent.”

I’m sorry if my decision not to publicly post the diagnosis is bothersome, I’m not meaning to offend.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Anon1234;8912594]
Thank you all for the advice and kind words- it is really appreciated. It has also allowed me to think more rationally about the situation.

As an update, I have actually been in touch with a couple other owners of pups from this litter. One has been diagnosed with the same disease, while another is having some other issues. Again, of course I don’t think there’s was anything nefarious or intentional. My disappointment lies in the reaction. And not being forthcoming about another pup sharing the same diagnosis.

TBH, money is not going to make our pup better. AT this point I want to have the breeder work with the owners of pups from their litter to come up with a solution. Maybe that’s wishful thinking.

I will be sending PMs to those who have requested what the diagnosis is.[/QUOTE]

Wow. Is it possible that the bitch contracted the virus while pregnant? Do you know what the symptoms of the virus would look like?

I’m sorry to hear about the other puppies but it probably gives you a feeling of confirmation about this. It’s not a misdiagnosis or a fluke.

[Horsegal984]

If other pups from the litter are affected I am starting to think it could be from the virus. It would be unusual for the bitch to not have been vaccinated and survive the illness while keeping the pups though.

[mommy_peanut]

I would agree with those above. Sounds like something that happened to the bitch while pregnant affected the pups. So sorry that the breeder is not being more supportive.

[Beethoven]

I’ve got a pretty good guess at the diagnosis, but would love a PM. Thanks.