Contender's influence in Aachen jump off

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Cover Girl;7676095]
I am not talking directly to anyone in my post.

Horse telex is not complete or entirely accurate. 8 is also not a large number given the hundreds and hundreds of mares he bred in Hanover.

Look at Holsteiner Cumano’s results, and he has had years of fertility problems. He I think is the most reliable producer of 1.60m horses and with such a small number of mares he was able to cover.

Talk to the people in the business when you like to know the real deal. Videos and stats are good, but it is not everything.[/QUOTE]

You don’t have to be talking to anyone directly.

FP sired many 1.6m jumpers all along. That was my point. I said I was only looking at the first page, and mares with Hann blood only . 9, not 8 (counted wrong) are from mares with just Hann bloodlines, and 14 1.6m total – on the first page. Naturally not all of his get are from Hann mares, because that would be too small of a gene pool.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7676099]
Viney…you have a real problem. Don’t you dare take my words out of context. They lost the canter in the dressage horses and were about to lose it out of the jumpers UNTIL they made efforts to approve stallions like Caretino , Contender , Linaro and Contendro with a swipe of the pen.

This was the first time Hannover had ever approved stallions without physically looking at them and they did so to TRY AND SAVE THEIR CANTER ! This is where you took my comment out of context.

You are jealous , spiteful and petty to the point you went back 4 years to try and spin my words in an effort to make yourself right . This is disgusting…and I’ll leave you with the words of W.C. Fields…“I have no time to suffer a fool”[/QUOTE]

Nice…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Cover Girl;7676062]
Not to take away the thread about the great influence of Contender.

But you need to study bloodlines, not registries. When talking about jumping horses, there is no doubt the Holsteiner is top, but you see the blood used in all the best studbooks.
Look at how many great Holsteiners have been leased to France and other countries that are strictly jumping studbooks. Belgium and Holland produce many of the worlds best jumpers, with Holsteiner and SF blood. The most successful studbooks are the ones using the best jumping blood, some studbooks have become more open to encourage this.

Not to take away from For Pleasure, as I own one and he has always been a favorite of mine. But For Pleasure is dead now for 2 years already, and only now are we really seeing any of his offspring reaching the highest level. Its not because no one ever tried using him. It’s a lot to do with the fact that he was used mostly on Hanovarian mares in the beginning. This might get you a nice amateur friendly 1.45 horse but not a 1.50-1.60m horse. There are going to be a few always, but Marcus Ehning would even have told you a couple years ago, there has not been much coming from FP.

Until the Belgians started using him on Nabab de Reve mares and other larger scopier type mares. Holstein has used him, and also the French, and now we see them coming. My FP mare is luckily out of a large framed Quidam de Revel/Cassini/Caretino mare. She is a registered BWP mare and was put in foal to FP by Joris de Brabanter (who for serious jumper breeders needs no intro).

I could go on and on. I tend to side with Reece on his strong belief of the Holsteiner. His delivery is not for everyone, but you guys seriously need to get out there and see the real deal in the flesh before making such strong opinions.[/QUOTE]

This is a real post from a real person who knows exactly what is going on in the show world.

One thing about my delivery Covergirl…you can see from some of these posts exactly why it is the way it is sometimes.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=SueL;7675933]
Hmmm, looks like a tribute post to a great stallion for whom Reece had a great deal of admiration and respect. Nothing more than that and certainly not a “My registry is better than your registry, neener ,neener” post. I think we can all agree that Contender holds a place in history. Thank you for reminding me of that in this post Reece.[/QUOTE]

Thank you SueL…this is exactly what I was doing.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Cover Girl;7676095]
I am not talking directly to anyone in my post.

Horse telex is not complete or entirely accurate. 8 is also not a large number given the hundreds and hundreds of mares he bred in Hanover.

Look at Holsteiner Cumano’s results, and he has had years of fertility problems. He I think is the most reliable producer of 1.60m horses and with such a small number of mares he was able to cover.

Talk to the people in the business when you like to know the real deal. Videos and stats are good, but it is not everything.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you about Cumano and strike rate. If you use strike rate right now with Cornet Obolensky…I believe him to be the #1 sire in the world. Baloubet du Rouet and Kannan have bred hundreds of mares…Cornet not even close to those numbers and yet he has so many at the top versus foals born.

[Cover_Girl]

I 100% agree on Cornet, he is my all time favorite stallion. Unfortunately he has the same issues with fertility now that Cumano always had. I tried Cornet 4 years ago, so before he became as famous here as he is now as a breeding stallion. I have a very good jumping Cornet Stern instead out of the Qdr/Cassini mare. She is not for an amateur, where as the FP mare out of the same dam is quite easy. I think Cornet did breed A LOT of mares when he was younger. I had dinner with Paul Schockemohle and he actually said the grey ones are the good ones, and he is right if you look that closely. I also think that is true for his sons, versus his daughters. But these things you only learn from being with the real deal.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Cover Girl;7676123]
I 100% agree on Cornet, he is my all time favorite stallion. Unfortunately he has the same issues with fertility now that Cumano always had. I tried Cornet 4 years ago, so before he became as famous here as he is now as a breeding stallion. I have a very good jumping Cornet Stern instead out of the Qdr/Cassini mare. She is not for an amateur, where as the FP mare out of the same dam is quite easy. I think Cornet did breed A LOT of mares when he was younger. I had dinner with Paul Schockemohle and he actually said the grey ones are the good ones, and he is right if you look that closely. I also think that is true for his sons, versus his daughters. But these things you only learn from being with the real deal.[/QUOTE]

Yep…you only learn these things by being immersed in the situations.

I am using the Bay son of Cornet LOL ! Comme il Faut is by Cornet and out of Ratina Z. He is jumping remarkably and Marcus says he will be at the top of the sport next year. He came out in his first 1.55meter this year and finished 2nd.

We have a Contender mare preg with him now and have several more booked for next year.

[Cover_Girl]

Comme il Faut was just born the first time I heard of Cornet. He is the perfect combo of Cornet with Ratina, but you can definately see the Ratina influence in him. He would be Ratina’s best product I would bet, but too much blood for my mares I think. Cornado is the one that I would like to use when he would be available, again great Holsteiner dam lines.

[Nikki]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7675878]
…I have no idea who Alex Forrest is to Dan Gallagher.[/QUOTE]

Do you remember the movie Fatal Attraction? Michael Douglas played Dan and Glenn Close played Alex.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Cover Girl;7676133]
Comme il Faut was just born the first time I heard of Cornet. He is the perfect combo of Cornet with Ratina, but you can definately see the Ratina influence in him. He would be Ratina’s best product I would bet, but too much blood for my mares I think. Cornado is the one that I would like to use when he would be available, again great Holsteiner dam lines.[/QUOTE]

Yes , he is Ratina’s best product so far !

Cornado is under a lottery system…I hope to get a mare selected for him this spring. I want him for a Calido / Acorado / Landgraf / Lord / Ramiro mare.

I love watching Cornado I & II in the same classes. They of course have a very good father but a really powerful Holsteiner mother as well.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Nikki^;7676136]
Do you remember the movie Fatal Attraction? Michael Douglas played Dan and Glenn Close played Alex. :P[/QUOTE]

Obviously you have no idea of the recent interactions between Bayhawk and me on this board.

On the Hanoverians not being able to produce top jumpers consistently, take a look at the TB kills the jump thread (which I just reviewed) where he brags about a Dutch ranking of mare lines in jumping, points out gleefully that no TBs and no Hanoverians made the list, and says that the hanoverians can produce a few top jumpers, but can’t do it regularly because their mare base isn’t strong enough.

Perhaps he’s correct; but three Hanoverians with Hanoverian mares made the top ten in the Aachen GP, but only one Holsteiner. He never posts except to brag about Holsteiners. It’s good for his business.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7676405]
Obviously you have no idea of the recent interactions between Bayhawk and me on this board.

On the Hanoverians not being able to produce top jumpers consistently, take a look at the TB kills the jump thread (which I just reviewed) where he brags about a Dutch ranking of mare lines in jumping, points out gleefully that no TBs and no Hanoverians made the list, and says that the hanoverians can produce a few top jumpers, but can’t do it regularly because their mare base isn’t strong enough.

Perhaps he’s correct; but three Hanoverians with Hanoverian mares made the top ten in the Aachen GP, but only one Holsteiner. He never posts except to brag about Holsteiners. It’s good for his business.[/QUOTE]

And everything I said was correct.

The problem is your petty jealousy. This is a sporthorse breeding forum. Holsteiners are bred for sporthorses. Of course I brag on them as they are my breed of choice.

Anyone else can brag about their breed of choice. The Hanoverian supporter could come on here and be proud and brag about their motherline producing the winner in Aachen if they like. SF supporter the same etc. etc.

You ruined yourself here Viney. I started this thread in remembrance of one of the greatest stallions ever. You chose to expose your petty self by deciding to poo-poo the Holsteiner , who by all accounts , appears to be immensely respected by everyone in the world except you.

You think I post about the success of the Holsteiner Horse on this forum because “it’s good for my buisness” ? You are once again flat out wrong. If I was…you would see a Facebook or website link in my signature line. I do it because there are a lot of people who admire the breed and want to learn more about it and I GIVE BACK. I was once one of these people.

Your petty , spiteful and vindictive behavior on this thread has eliminated any respect I may have still had for you.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7676405]
Perhaps he’s correct; but three Hanoverians with Hanoverian mares made the top ten in the Aachen GP, but only one Holsteiner. He never posts except to brag about Holsteiners. It’s good for his business.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps Bayhawk can pipe in here, but my understanding is that Hanover produces MANY more horses per year than does the Holsteiner Verband. It’s a law of averages. If you are going to state that Hanoverian mares are producers, you need to take into account that the Hanoverian Verband simply has a better shot at it.

I have a Hanoverian mare that was a decent show horse for me back in the day. I show hunters, so this may not be germane to the conversation. However, when I decided to breed her, I selected Holsteiner stallions. Coming from a family who bred top performing reiners and cutters, it made sense to me to breed for performance (jump). I may have been lucky, but all 3 foals she produced have outperformed her by far. One I kept for myself. She’s a bit spicy and more of a pro ride, but there’s no question she a WAY better jumper than her mother.

[nutmeg]

Another horse deserving recognition for her progeny at Aachen is Knappe van Heyvelde, grandmother of both Voyeur and Barron. A BWP, probably Flemish if we’re getting all fussy about territory.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Cover Girl;7676062]

I could go on and on. I tend to side with Reece on his strong belief of the Holsteiner. His delivery is not for everyone, but you guys seriously need to get out there and see the real deal in the flesh before making such strong opinions.[/QUOTE]

Bolding mine…

And, there is the crux of the matter. This was evident on the “TB Kills The Jump” thread. I understand breed passion. However, it’s frustrating to continually have discussions with people who sit behind a computer and are not out there actively showing and observing what’s winning. While Bayhawk’s delivery can sometimes be a bit over the top, I can understand his/her frustration with people who refuse to accept that the sporthorse breeding world has moved on and the “new” formula is what’s winning.

Viney’s (and others) delivery may be more polite, but she continues to poke at Bayhawk none-the-less. However, she’s certainly entitled to her opinion, even when it’s wrong.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7676776]
Perhaps Bayhawk can pipe in here, but my understanding is that Hanover produces MANY more horses per year than does the Holsteiner Verband. It’s a law of averages. If you are going to state that Hanoverian mares are producers, you need to take into account that the Hanoverian Verband simply has a better shot at it.

I have a Hanoverian mare that was a decent show horse for me back in the day. I show hunters, so this may not be germane to the conversation. However, when I decided to breed her, I selected Holsteiner stallions. Coming from a family who bred top performing reiners and cutters, it made sense to me to breed for performance (jump). I may have been lucky, but all 3 foals she produced have outperformed her by far. One I kept for myself. She’s a bit spicy and more of a pro ride, but there’s no question she a WAY better jumper than her mother.[/QUOTE]

All the top registries produce twice as many foals as the Holsteiner breeders do and this stat points to how strong they are genetically.

Currently Holstein is ranked #1 and Hanoverian Verband is ranked 8th. You can’t compare the two…Holstein is almost pure jumper breeding while Hannover is more producing dressage and general riding horses. They have just a few top jumping lines but what they do have is very, very good as we just saw in Aachen. They provided the motherline of the champion.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7676852]
Bolding mine…

And, there is the crux of the matter. This was evident on the “TB Kills The Jump” thread. I understand breed passion. However, it’s frustrating to continually have discussions with people who sit behind a computer and are not out there actively showing and observing what’s winning. While Bayhawk’s delivery can sometimes be a bit over the top, I can understand his/her frustration with people who refuse to accept that the sporthorse breeding world has moved on and the “new” formula is what’s winning.

Viney’s (and others) delivery may be more polite, but she continues to poke at Bayhawk none-the-less. However, she’s certainly entitled to her opinion, even when it’s wrong.[/QUOTE]

It is so frustrating because unless you are immersed in the showring ,breeding shed , conversing with riders and breeders etc. you have no way of fully understanding what is actually happening…thus limiting your ability to have a knowledgeable discussion without making sweeping generalities.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=nutmeg;7676831]
Another horse deserving recognition for her progeny at Aachen is Knappe van Heyvelde, grandmother of both Voyeur and Barron. A BWP, probably Flemish if we’re getting all fussy about territory.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely she deserves recognition. A top mare is a top mare no matter the burn on her bum.

[Bachus]

Yes, the Hannoveraner Verband has a great deal of more mares and foals, a big part is dressage. As the market was there for dressage. Since 1993 they started up a jumping horse program and several breeding attemps to keep the G line. Slowly they are coming up more. For Pleasure has in Germany 512 offspring in total in sport, 134 are jumping at 1.40m level and higher. He has got mares in Belgium and France too, it would be interesting to find out what he covered there. He has in Germany 36 approved sons.

Contender; has in total 1921 offspring in sport, 387 are jumping at 1.40 and higher and 18 horses at advanced level dressage. And 121 approved sons. This is also only the data for Germany.

For Pleasure is born in 1986 with a sportcareer and Contender in 1984 with no sportscareer.

For stallions it is really difficult to judge their quality since their offspring need so long before they really perform. Contender was much more loved then For Pleasure. I find it very interesting that the offspring from For Pleasure are doing so well. And yes I scream and cheer for every horse with Contender blood in the pedigree, I loved that stallion with all my heart. But also the amount of For Pleasure blood was really interesting!

The Hannoverians are on their way back in the jumping ring and they are a bit more open for other studbooks, I is very interesting to follow!

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7676900]
It is so frustrating because unless you are immersed in the showring ,breeding shed , conversing with riders and breeders etc. you have no way of fully understanding what is actually happening…thus limiting your ability to have a knowledgeable discussion without making sweeping generalities.[/QUOTE]

I get it, I really do. :yes: