Contender's influence in Aachen jump off

[omare]

I thought For Pleasure campaigned many years until his late teens limiting (relatively speaking of course) the number of get he had early on (as compared for example Contendro etc)

It looked like he had amazing “spring” but with a flat back technique( ??) --would that make him less loved as a stallion prospect despite his achievements? (It seems the big round bascule is what will be rewarded with early $$$ with young horses.) It is perhaps not surprizing that he would produce well with a strong backed mare base …but it is not a science and who knows at times how different strengths will combine (or not.) (I think I read that Corde de la byere produced “rabbits” with the SF mare base and as he needed the strong backed holsteiner mare (as they also needed him).

[Bachus]

For Pleasure retired in dec. 2005 after jumping 6 years at the 1.60m level with Marcus Ehning. And four years before that with Lars Nieberg at 1.60m so he competed 10 years at 1.60m level. He was twice part of teamgold at the Olympics and during the Sydney Olympics he was ranked 4th in the individuel ranking.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7676852]
Bolding mine…

And, there is the crux of the matter. This was evident on the “TB Kills The Jump” thread. I understand breed passion. However, it’s frustrating to continually have discussions with people who sit behind a computer and are not out there actively showing and observing what’s winning. While Bayhawk’s delivery can sometimes be a bit over the top, I can understand his/her frustration with people who refuse to accept that the sporthorse breeding world has moved on and the “new” formula is what’s winning.

Viney’s (and others) delivery may be more polite, but she continues to poke at Bayhawk none-the-less. However, she’s certainly entitled to her opinion, even when it’s wrong.[/QUOTE]
My humble opinion…
Vineyridge may be sitting behind her computer (I don’t know her personally, so I don’t know, but I guess we all do, because otherwise we wouldn’t write here. But I respect her opinion as well as Bayhawks opinion (although I think his way of expressing himself is for me somehow rude…) Both of them are not perfect. So both of them are free to have their own opinion.
I remember Inken Johannsen and Paul Schockemoehle were quoted in this thread There is a slight difference between them and Bayhawk… And I believe (may be wrong) that this difference is very important. Both of these breeders were very successful riders. So they felt what they bred. That is IMO very very important and sorry Bayhawk as long as you are not a rider I am not able to put you on the same level as them. IMO you listened to a lot of Stuff when you were in Germany but some of the stuff kind of went over the top. I know that breeders in Holstein are a little different, but you are kind of overdoing it…

And I would not have written anything because I don’t really care anyhow for Holsteiner, I breed Oldenburgs but will use any Stallion which I think to be useful for my breeding plans, but I think it is pretty rude to always attack Vineyridge, and I don’t really know why this has to happen… I thought the USA is a country with free rights of opinions…

Oh, and wasn’t this supposed to be a thread about Contender?? So far I haven’t read a lot about him…

[omare]

"For Pleasure retired in dec. 2005 after jumping 6 years at the 1.60m level with Marcus Ehning. And four years before that with Lars Nieberg at 1.60m so he competed 10 years at 1.60m level. He was twice part of teamgold at the Olympics and during the Sydney Olympics he was ranked 4th in the individuel rankinngs "
That gives me chills- campaigned at the top unitl he was almost 20.

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=Manni01;7677261]

And I believe (may be wrong) that this difference is very important. Both of these breeders were very successful riders. So they felt what they bred. That is IMO very very important …[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. I do think it helps as a breeder to also be a rider. It is impossible to explain what a horse should actually feel like under saddle. Now that I am showing Third Level and schooling 4th+ I look at stallions and mares in a new light. I look at their backs, head carriage, neck carriage, loins in a different way than I did in the past. PS was obviously a great rider, as well as other members of his family, so it was steeped in his “bones” so to speak.

Regarding Contendro I, as the origins of this post., I think he is a fabulous stallion, and this is coming from a dressage POV:) Many folks talk about adding jumper blood to their dressage lines, but not all jumping blood helps a dressage horse. For example, no one would add Stakkato to their dressage horse…he would be of no improvement value. However, Contendro I has successfully crossed with dressage mare (from Hanoverian lines) to improve jump in the canter, a quicker hind leg, good loin. I was lucky enough to meet him at Famos a few years ago and he looked fantastic even in his older years. I was able to speak to his rider for a bit which was immensely helpful. He discussed how he felt in the bridle and body use under the saddle. After that visit two friends of mine in Europe used him on their dressage mares…one of those is now in training with Uta Graf.

I know nothing of discussing jumpers for jumpers sake…all I do with jumpers is watch them at the big shows and cringe that no one gets hurt!!

[omare]

Dumb question but where does the movement come from in Contender blood?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=omare;7677399]
Dumb question but where does the movement come from in Contender blood?[/QUOTE]

Calypso II and Loretto

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Manni01;7677261]
My humble opinion…
Vineyridge may be sitting behind her computer (I don’t know her personally, so I don’t know, but I guess we all do, because otherwise we wouldn’t write here. But I respect her opinion as well as Bayhawks opinion (although I think his way of expressing himself is for me somehow rude…) Both of them are not perfect. So both of them are free to have their own opinion.
I remember Inken Johannsen and Paul Schockemoehle were quoted in this thread There is a slight difference between them and Bayhawk… And I believe (may be wrong) that this difference is very important. Both of these breeders were very successful riders. So they felt what they bred. That is IMO very very important and sorry Bayhawk as long as you are not a rider I am not able to put you on the same level as them. IMO you listened to a lot of Stuff when you were in Germany but some of the stuff kind of went over the top. I know that breeders in Holstein are a little different, but you are kind of overdoing it…

And I would not have written anything because I don’t really care anyhow for Holsteiner, I breed Oldenburgs but will use any Stallion which I think to be useful for my breeding plans, but I think it is pretty rude to always attack Vineyridge, and I don’t really know why this has to happen… I thought the USA is a country with free rights of opinions…

Oh, and wasn’t this supposed to be a thread about Contender?? So far I haven’t read a lot about him…[/QUOTE]

“you listened to some stuff while you were in Germany”. I’ve been going for 2 decades Manni…and am very good friends with some of the best breeding families in the world. I just don’t “hear things”.

You have a right to your opinion ,but I have a right to dis-agree with your opinion about riding. Some of the best breeders in the world don’t ride. You think P.Schockemohle rides the mares he breeds anymore ? Of course not.

You absolutely do not have to ride to be a good breeder.

I started this thread about Contender’s influence in Aachen. I didn’t derail it.

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=omare;7677399]
Dumb question but where does the movement come from in Contender blood?[/QUOTE]

From a dressage POV, Calypso II was a very versatile stallion used in both jumper and dressage breeding. He certainly added power and the uphill canter with good jump often seen with the Holsteiner horse. However, he was quite heavy and his trot flat (certainly as compared to todays desired dressage movement). Look up pictures of him…can we say old fashioned draft style:)?

Now when bred to a refining mare with a fair amount of Tb to add lightness and quickness of movement you could get the a great mix for a dressage horse. Contendro I has that via Contender sire and a dam line steeped in Ramzes AA blood (so not exactly all Tb, but you get the point). Contendro I crosses back to Ramzes AA something like 4 or 5 times…now this is assuming Ramiro is Ramzes AA as all literature states, but Bayhawk says rumors say otherwise…so…

As an aside…and I am bringing up the Tb as it relates to dressage horses, not show jumpers so please don’t open “that” can of worms…but in the Hanoverian the tb (mostly through Lauries Crusador) is desired in the second generation. The first generation (i.e.; F1) can be a bit flat in the trot, but the F2 generation that Tb influence really adds lovely lightness and freedom and quickness. Obviously they also help a lot by improving the type on some of the older, heavier type German mares.

[Manni01]

and Contender goes really well with TB. Here is a video of a horse sired by a TB out of a Contender mother competing in *** Eventing. I am a fan of Contender and his offspring as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U7L9zGpD_g

[Bachus]

Contender worked well with many different types of mares. Checkmate comes from a Hannoverian line and I think he is the oldest (19) offspring from Contender who is still competing. He was not so big, for me he does not look like Contender at all.

Constantin had a lot more from Contender; http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/265356

Contender his match seems to be with Landgraf I mares and Casall seems to very good on Contender mares. Here you have several crosses to Ladykiller xx to make the foal more modern.

[risingstarfarm]

My best brood mare is Contender/Landgraf/Ronald stamm 730b. Fantastic movement and jump.

[ladyj79]

I’d say more and more it’s a rarity for top riders to involve themselves in breeding, and it really was never that common to begin with.

Certainly most horses being produced at any level are not being produced by riders.

[omare]

Any theories on why some stallions make good stallion sons while others make good broodmare daughters?

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7679441]
I’d say more and more it’s a rarity for top riders to involve themselves in breeding, and it really was never that common to begin with.

Certainly most horses being produced at any level are not being produced by riders.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know… Paul Schockemoehle was an amazing rider… I don’t like his way of breeding but I do have respect for his results… Inken Johannsen was (is) a very good rider, and in Dressage there are many examples for good riders also being great breeders… One of my favorite examples is Breitling bred by Wolfram Wittig… I think he bred about 23 GP Dressagehorses?? Maybe I remember that wrong, there was an article about him… Also Sissi Max-Theurer, she was an Olympic Rider, now she breeds Horses… I think Isabell Werths parents breed horses, and there are many others…
One of the articles about Wolfram Wittig…
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2012/10/wolfram-wittig-rider-breeder-trainer/

My favorite article
http://horsesinternational.com/articles/breeding-philosophy-wolfram-wittig/

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=omare;7679546]
Any theories on why some stallions make good stallion sons while others make good broodmare daughters?[/QUOTE]

I do have a theory… Some stallions produce beautiful horses which are not that easy to ride. Good examples are probably Akzent II and Sandro Hit. Akzent II broodmare used to be very popular in Germany (De Niro is out of a Akzent II ) Broodmare. The reason is that some of the tricky character might be gone in the next generation but the nice things like appearance, gaits and so on are still there. And I have the feeling, the same goes for Sandro Hit now…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7679441]
I’d say more and more it’s a rarity for top riders to involve themselves in breeding, and it really was never that common to begin with.

Certainly most horses being produced at any level are not being produced by riders.[/QUOTE]

The two are dis-connected. The riders don’t have time to breed generally. There are a few that do but mostly not.

Even the breeders that did ride their mares before breeding usually only rode them in a short MPT.

The notion that riders have an advantage in breeding has no merit. The only advantage they may have is when breeding for themselves.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7679441]
I’d say more and more it’s a rarity for top riders to involve themselves in breeding, and it really was never that common to begin with.

Certainly most horses being produced at any level are not being produced by riders.[/QUOTE]

This is absolutely true. Top riders/trainers are not breeding their own horses.

If being able to ride your own horses successfully made you a better breeder, then all the race horse breeders would be riding and training their own horses.

[Bachus]

Jos Lansink is breeding with his own mares, Sören von Rönne is breeding with their mares, Markus and Meredith Michaels Beerbaum are breeding on small scale, Ludger Beerbaum is having his own stud, Anka who was ridden by Marcus Ehning was broodmare with family Ehning and has a offspring by For Pleasure, Hans Horn set up his own stud, all the mares from VDL Group (not VDL Stud) are being used after their sportscareer as a broodmare and the riders decide for a big part the stallions together with the manager of the mares.

And these are only the riders I know off… Working with the horses and/or riding them always give you important information. Harm Thormählen was a succesful rider aswell. I don’t ride anymore and I never competed but I have been a groom at some very big stables and I am still gratefull for what I have learned there.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7679987]
This is absolutely true. Top riders/trainers are not breeding their own horses.

If being able to ride your own horses successfully made you a better breeder, then all the race horse breeders would be riding and training their own horses.[/QUOTE]

Being a race jockey, at a jockey’s weight, is completely different from being a Sporthorse rider in Sport. There is no valid comparison there.

I believe someone ought to ride horses intended for breeding, in any discipline; whether the breeder or someone very good at telling the breeder what the horse lacks or excells in.

One really can’t say a horse is ‘upper level quality’ without somone capable of asking the horse and evaluating their response.

Race horses don’t win because they ‘look fast’ in the paddock, they prove themselves on the track.