Contender's influence in Aachen jump off

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7680241]
Jos Lansink is breeding with his own mares, Sören von Rönne is breeding with their mares, Markus and Meredith Michaels Beerbaum are breeding on small scale, Ludger Beerbaum is having his own stud, Anka who was ridden by Marcus Ehning was broodmare with family Ehning and has a offspring by For Pleasure, Hans Horn set up his own stud, all the mares from VDL Group (not VDL Stud) are being used after their sportscareer as a broodmare and the riders decide for a big part the stallions together with the manager of the mares.

And these are only the riders I know off… Working with the horses and/or riding them always give you important information. Harm Thormählen was a succesful rider aswell. I don’t ride anymore and I never competed but I have been a groom at some very big stables and I am still gratefull for what I have learned there.[/QUOTE]

Adrianna…the point is , you don’t have to ride the horses to be a good breeder.

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7679772]
The notion that riders have an advantage in breeding has no merit. The only advantage they may have is when breeding for themselves.[/QUOTE]

I will respectfully disagree that there is no merit in being a rider and being a breeder. Everyone will have a different take on this depending if they are a rider or not. I can just say from my personal experience, and those of friends of mine that are top breeders, the ones that ride feel like that extra knowledge is beneficial. Can you be a top breeder without being a rider? Sure. Would that same person have a different perspective on things if they rode as well? Probably.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7680271]
I will respectfully disagree that there is no merit in being a rider and being a breeder. Everyone will have a different take on this depending if they are a rider or not. I can just say from my personal experience, and those of friends of mine that are top breeders, the ones that ride feel like that extra knowledge is beneficial. Can you be a top breeder without being a rider? Sure. Would that same person have a different perspective on things if they rode as well? Probably.[/QUOTE]

Blume…I didn’t say there was “no merit in being a rider and being a breeder”.

What I said was "the notion that riders have an advantage in breeding has no merit "

[D_BaldStockings]

Half a quote is better than none?

Your two (separate) posts were:
“You absolutely do not have to ride to be a good breeder.”

"The notion that riders have an advantage in breeding has no merit. The only advantage they may have is when breeding for themselves. "

Since you do not ride you may not be the person to say “the only advantage they may have is…”
-If we are also to agree with yourposition that ‘you have to be there (showing and on the stud farms)’ to have a valid opinion worth attending to.

A non-rider must have opinions from riders. If he/she gets those opinions from others, great. If from himself/herself in addition, that is an advantage a non-rider doesn’t have.

No one has all the advantages.

[Donella]

The notion that riders have an advantage in breeding has no merit. The only advantage they may have is when breeding for themselves

This may be the case with jumping horses but when it comes to breeding dressage horses there is no doubt that riders would have an advantage. I think if you are an avid competitor you will, in general, have a stronger appreciation for and awareness of the nuances of what makes a good dressage horse and if you ride professionally, you also have the advantage of sitting on many horses from many different stallions.

All other things equal, the rider has the advantage.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Donella;7681094]
The notion that riders have an advantage in breeding has no merit. The only advantage they may have is when breeding for themselves

This may be the case with jumping horses but when it comes to breeding dressage horses there is no doubt that riders would have an advantage. I think if you are an avid competitor you will, in general, have a stronger appreciation for and awareness of the nuances of what makes a good dressage horse and if you ride professionally, you also have the advantage of sitting on many horses from many different stallions.

All other things equal, the rider has the advantage.[/QUOTE]

Then why don’t we see most of the top horses bred by the riders ? We’re not seeing that and as a matter of fact…we rarely see that.

I would agree with you that riders of many stallions MAY have the upper hand when choosing a mare for them but the breeder knows his/her mare the best.

Riders also fall into making decisions and crosses THEY like instead of what would be a good horse for many people.

This is why most riders from all over the world flock to Europe where they can sit on hundreds and pick the “feel” they are looking for.

A breeder can learn all they need to know from the ground , living with the mare family and getting input from the rider.

[ladyj79]

I probably don’t have to explain why most riders, especially those at the top, are not breeding their own rides, but sufficed to say, it can pretty much be boiled down to there is too much “risk” of various kinds, too much money, and too much time involved. They aren’t breeding everyone else’s rides for all those reasons as well as the not unimportant market-related reason Bayhawk pointed out.

To simplify, I can say my trainer likes horses who handle like ferraris, whereas I’m probably closer to the average ammie and prefer more of a volvo sedan ride He’d never, ever breed those horses, because he (and most top riders) have very, very little real interest in “the market”. They are concerned with competing horses, whereas breeders are more often than not concerned with selling horses, some of whom will hopefully be picked up and/or competed by top riders. But statistically speaking, most will be purchased by idiots who want a volvo sedan

[Manni01]

Maybe we are talking about different perspectives… In Europe many many top riders breed A very good example for me is John Whitaker. this is an interview with him
http://angloeuropeanstudbook.co.uk/interviews/i132/john-whitaker-someone-has-to-breed
. Over here maybe breeders don’t ride, but in Europe they do for sure… Wolfram Wittig bred 35 horses who turned out to compete S and higher… Not bad for a rider… I have no idea what a top horse for Bayhawk is… For me a top horse is a horse being able to compete on S level or higher which gives you a good time And to breed 35 of them is quite an outstanding achievement…
And Bayhawk, how does the breeder know his mare when he never rode her?? Each rider is different and I would not really trust all riders about their opinions about ridability. I don’t want to breed horses which I am not comfortable with. Why should I give other riders a hard time?? I know each one of my mares and her personal habits and I can tell you from each of my foals how they will turn out, because I know their dams working attitude. I could not imagine to breed mares without knowing about their character and character shows best while riding… Also which I think is really really important for performance horses… Health and durability. If you don’t ride your horses how do you know how tough they are?? Quality of their tendons and ligaments??? And this is something you have to experience yourself. I don’t trust other opinions there. It is so much management, bad tendons might hold up well with great management and tough horses might still get killed by bad management. I only trust my own standards there… No for me there would be no breeding without riding. Its ok for everybody to have their own opinions about it, but I feel myself in good company

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7679772]
The notion that riders have an advantage in breeding has no merit. The only advantage they may have is when breeding for themselves.[/QUOTE]

I’ve gotta agree with Reece on this. And the insinuation seems to go along with the “find something to shove in Bayhawk’s face” when the thread was supposed to be an homage to a great horse.

I ride. I do not have the time and ability to put into breeding what I put into riding. Like I do with my farrier, my vet, and the people I train with, I rely on those who put their all into their particular art…though in this case the art of creating athletes.

As a rider I feel that I have an advantage in understanding which types of horses I will enjoy riding, but that gives me zero advantage in understanding or capitalizing on the genetics of breeding and art of picking the right mare or stallion. Perhaps it gives me a slight advantage in picking my own horses for ME to ride once they’re at the yearling/2yo stage, but I am a babe in the wood looking at foals and understanding the trade-offs of crossing particular lines and what will really produce exactly what it is that I want to ride.

Nowhere did Reece say that riders are at a disadvantage. Just that there’s no particular connection between riding and breeding. I would say that someone who is a great breeder and a great rider has mastered 2 different arts. They’ve certainly earned my respect, but it’s not a necessity to master one to master the other.

Would those of you who feel that you have to be a rider to be a great breeder say the reverse? That you must be a masterful breeder in order to be a great rider? Certainly there might be certain circumstances where you’d have a slight advantage, but it sounds like a pretty silly statement in that direction. Not sure why you seem to think that it sounds more reasonable the other way.

As long as you are open to learning and hearing what the expert in the other field has to say (meaning that the breeder pays heed to the riders who ride his horses and vice versa), there’s no need to have mastered both yourself.

[D_BaldStockings]

Another Contender grandson -don’t think he was mentioned…

ROYCE (Cadilot) Oldenburg by Cafe au lait

a stallion in 11th place
http://www.chioaachen.de/de/starterlisten?iEventId=971&sListLabel=Ergebnisse%20S17

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Manni01;7681601]
Maybe we are talking about different perspectives… In Europe many many top riders breed A very good example for me is John Whitaker. this is an interview with him
http://angloeuropeanstudbook.co.uk/interviews/i132/john-whitaker-someone-has-to-breed
. Over here maybe breeders don’t ride, but in Europe they do for sure… Wolfram Wittig bred 35 horses who turned out to compete S and higher… Not bad for a rider… I have no idea what a top horse for Bayhawk is… For me a top horse is a horse being able to compete on S level or higher which gives you a good time And to breed 35 of them is quite an outstanding achievement…
And Bayhawk, how does the breeder know his mare when he never rode her?? Each rider is different and I would not really trust all riders about their opinions about ridability. I don’t want to breed horses which I am not comfortable with. Why should I give other riders a hard time?? I know each one of my mares and her personal habits and I can tell you from each of my foals how they will turn out, because I know their dams working attitude. I could not imagine to breed mares without knowing about their character and character shows best while riding… Also which I think is really really important for performance horses… Health and durability. If you don’t ride your horses how do you know how tough they are?? Quality of their tendons and ligaments??? And this is something you have to experience yourself. I don’t trust other opinions there. It is so much management, bad tendons might hold up well with great management and tough horses might still get killed by bad management. I only trust my own standards there… No for me there would be no breeding without riding. Its ok for everybody to have their own opinions about it, but I feel myself in good company :)[/QUOTE]

Manni…I think you are taking my point wrong. I never said one shouldn’t ride the mares they breed with or have their children ride them or have a trainer prepare them for the MPT.

Most of my mares go to the MPT where the judges are experts at scoring them for rideability and character. I get tons of information from this before I breed.

Most of the best breeders in the world DO NOT ride…they have gotten too old but they have ways (as I stated above) of gleaning the necessary information.

[D_BaldStockings]

Someone needs to ride the horse to prove it. And the breeder needs to know the results of that.

While I would not expect a beef cattle breeder to be a gourmand, necessarily, I would be surprised that he was vegetarian.

Surprised, but not discounting the beef produced if gourmands recommend it.
if no one eats the beef, no one knows how good or bad it is.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;7681759]
I’ve gotta agree with Reece on this. And the insinuation seems to go along with the “find something to shove in Bayhawk’s face” when the thread was supposed to be an homage to a great horse.

I ride. I do not have the time and ability to put into breeding what I put into riding. Like I do with my farrier, my vet, and the people I train with, I rely on those who put their all into their particular art…though in this case the art of creating athletes.

As a rider I feel that I have an advantage in understanding which types of horses I will enjoy riding, but that gives me zero advantage in understanding or capitalizing on the genetics of breeding and art of picking the right mare or stallion. Perhaps it gives me a slight advantage in picking my own horses for ME to ride once they’re at the yearling/2yo stage, but I am a babe in the wood looking at foals and understanding the trade-offs of crossing particular lines and what will really produce exactly what it is that I want to ride.

Nowhere did Reece say that riders are at a disadvantage. Just that there’s no particular connection between riding and breeding. I would say that someone who is a great breeder and a great rider has mastered 2 different arts. They’ve certainly earned my respect, but it’s not a necessity to master one to master the other.

Would those of you who feel that you have to be a rider to be a great breeder say the reverse? That you must be a masterful breeder in order to be a great rider? Certainly there might be certain circumstances where you’d have a slight advantage, but it sounds like a pretty silly statement in that direction. Not sure why you seem to think that it sounds more reasonable the other way.

As long as you are open to learning and hearing what the expert in the other field has to say (meaning that the breeder pays heed to the riders who ride his horses and vice versa), there’s no need to have mastered both yourself.[/QUOTE]

Perfect post coming from your Grand Prix riding self !

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7681785]
Someone needs to ride the horse to prove it. And the breeder needs to know the results of that.

While I would not expect a beef cattle breeder to be a gourmand, necessarily, I would be surprised that he was vegetarian.

Surprised, but not discounting the beef produced if gourmands recommend it.
if no one eats the beef, no one knows how good or bad it is.[/QUOTE]

Again…some of the best breeding mares in the world have never had a saddle on their back. It is really useful to have info from them undersaddle but it is not totally necessary easpecialy when you are breeding from generations of mares and you already know their positives and negative traits.

[Donella]

Then why don’t we see most of the top horses bred by the riders ? We’re not seeing that and as a matter of fact…we rarely see that.

I just don’t think it is common at all for a good rider to also be really into breeding. In fact, it is a complete rarity. For most people it is either one or the other. But there ARE some top riders that are passionate about breeding and they seem to be very successful. Just off the top of my head:

Wolfram Wittig

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2012/10/wolfram-wittig-rider-breeder-trainer/

Wolfram has bred over 10 internationally competative GP horses and probably double that that are already at advanced level. All from his own stallion no less.

Catherine Haddad is another that rides GP and has bred GP horses and licensed stallions from a very small program.

Monica Theodorescu has also bred several GP horses from a mare she competed.

Johan Rockx has bred a number:

http://horsesinternational.com/articles/grand-prix-rider-rockx-breeds-use/

Leunus van Lieren. He is a rider and his son has been part of the Dutch team.

http://horsesinternational.com/articles/leunus-van-lieren-dressagehorses-are-made-and-not-just-born/

Van Lieren has bred 14 GP horses!

This is just off the top of my head. I am sure there are more, but as I said, it is still unusual for a really good rider to also be a passionate breeder. But when you can do both you certainly do have an advantage. I am not sure there are many other breeders out there that have bred 14 grand prix dressage horses to be honest with you. Especially not from very small programs. All of these breeders have used their feel and knowledge as a rider to influence their breeding decisions. Someone who doesn’t ride just simply does not have that kind of first hand knowledge.

[Donella]

Just that there’s no particular connection between riding and breeding.

This is just absurd.

[Donella]

Would those of you who feel that you have to be a rider to be a great breeder say the reverse?

I don’t think anyone is saying that. What I am arguing is that a good rider has an advantage if he/she also happens to be passionate about breeding.

[vineyridge]

In eventing, Bruce Davidson, Mary King and Tina Cook, Sara Algotsson and Karin Donckers, all world class riders, have competed homebreds to the top (Games) level. I’m sure there are many others, but these come off the top of my head.

[D_BaldStockings]

Some riders prefer certain bloodlines and know the usual traits associated with those lines (expect a horse to ride like____)

If breeding is selecting mates based on their traits and their family heritage then some riders who do not breed would make very good ‘paper breeders’, though they do not physically breed themselves.
They influence breeders by their purchases.

++

A broodmare that is herself untried may or may not possess the desirable traits of her family: she is unknown. She may certainly be a grand broodmare in hindsight, when her foals compete.
Or she may be just average or less as a producer.

No one can tell.

Speaking from a strictly race horse perspective, a top class running mare does produce better statistically than a claimer given similar family and bloodlines.

Finding out which of a crop of fillies is in that class requires testing.

Unraced with great bloodlines will always sell well as a youngster until old enough to compete, or prove itself through offspring that compete.
So as a marketer, there is no $$ difference short term.

In 5-10 years, however, one may find they are not using mares with the genes to pass on to future performers.

Not all well-bred mares live up to their bloodlines; or stallions, either.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7681863]
Some riders prefer certain bloodlines and know the usual traits associated with those lines (expect a horse to ride like____)

If breeding is selecting mates based on their traits and their family heritage then some riders who do not breed would make very good ‘paper breeders’, though they do not physically breed themselves.
They influence breeders by their purchases.

++

A broodmare that is herself untried may or may not possess the desirable traits of her family: she is unknown. She may certainly be a grand broodmare in hindsight, when her foals compete.
Or she may be just average or less as a producer.

No one can tell.

Speaking from a strictly race horse perspective, a top class running mare does produce better statistically than a claimer given similar family and bloodlines.

Finding out which of a crop of fillies is in that class requires testing.

Unraced with great bloodlines will always sell well as a youngster until old enough to compete, or prove itself through offspring that compete.
So as a marketer, there is no $$ difference short term.

In 5-10 years, however, one may find they are not using mares with the genes to pass on to future performers.

Not all well-bred mares live up to their bloodlines; or stallions, either.[/QUOTE]

“Not all well bred mares live up to their bloodlines”

…and neither do top sporthorse mares in breeding.