Contender's influence in Aachen jump off

[D_BaldStockings]

Bayhawk, you are quite right. Not all.
More than from a random selection of similarly bred mares, assuming nearly half end up tried as performers.
If NO ONE has performing mares, then there are none to choose from and your choice must be based on bloodlines alone.

But just as you are statistically making a better choice by breeding with a ‘proven good’ broodmare than a ‘proven poor’ broodmare; you are statistically more likely to breed a better candidate from a top performance mare than any other class, including unraced.

Note this is not the same as a top $ selling prospect.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7681922]
Bayhawk, you are quite right. Not all.
More than from a random selection of similarly bred mares, assuming nearly half end up tried as performers.
If NO ONE has performing mares, then there are none to choose from and your choice must be based on bloodlines alone.

But just as you are statistically making a better choice by breeding with a ‘proven good’ broodmare than a ‘proven poor’ broodmare; you are statistically more likely to breed a better candidate from a top performance mare than any other class, including unraced.

Note this is not the same as a top $ selling prospect.[/QUOTE]

“Statistically more likely to breed a better candidate from a top performance mare than any other class”…this statement is untrue when it come to breeding jumpers…may hold true for racers, but not jumpers.

An overwhelming amount of the best jumping horses in the world have come from breeding mares and not performance mares.

If you told me that I could only breed with GP jumping mares…I would just quit, because I know for a fact they have had the least production.

[Zuri]

I am a novice breeder, so please forgive me if this question sounds silly.

In your experience, when breeding Holsteiners, TB for sport and other WB breeds, what factors do you give the most weight to when pairing a mare and a stallion?

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Manni01;7681601]
I know each one of my mares and her personal habits and I can tell you from each of my foals how they will turn out, because I know their dams working attitude. [/QUOTE]

You must have a crystal ball. Your statement would indicate that only the mare is responsible for “working attitude.” There are a lot of other factors involved, stallion, conformation, who ends up with the youngster, trainer/training, soundness, money, etc.

I tend to ride/show my mares before they’re bred, which definitely shortens their breeding career, particularly with sport horses. They do tend to get started later in life. I’m okay with mares passing the performance test, then going right to the breeding shed. I fully understand a serious breeder needing to see a return on investment as soon as possible, rather than waiting until a mare’s show career to be over. It’s also DANG expensive to train and show ANY horse, let alone a broodmare prospect.

[Go_Fish]

@PNWjumper;7681759

I’ve gotta agree with Reece on this. And the insinuation seems to go along with the “find something to shove in Bayhawk’s face” when the thread was supposed to be an homage to a great horse.

I think you nailed it…

Great post, BTW.

[ladyj79]

This is turning into the tb thread all over again. A handful of riders who breed does not the norm make. Also breeding a handful of horses doesn’t a breeder make.

[D_BaldStockings]

I apologise for introducing TB statistics. They have a huge number of horses wtih data, a large proportion of them are asked to perform,and while training is important, the results are as close to genetically determined as any performance on the planet.

As German verbands and many followers of WB breeding are fond of co-efficients and rankings, I thought it might be interesting to see if there was a valid parallel between performance records of breeding stock WB (not just their family group) and progeny expectations.

-I did post a Contender descendant but I suppose it was missed. post #70.

Breeding a high percentage of good horses, whether a handful or a competition full does make one a breeder.
Breeding performance is difficult at best. Much harder than ‘pretty’ or ‘sweet’. Developing that ability is very costly and depends so much on good luck and timing.

There are many roads to Rome.

[Donella]

This is turning into te tb thread all over again. A handful of riders who breed does not the norm make. Also breeding a handful of horses doesn’t a breeder make.

I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=Donella;7682650]

This is turning into te tb thread all over again. A handful of riders who breed does not the norm make. Also breeding a handful of horses doesn’t a breeder make.

I don’t think anyone here has claimed anything of the sort.[/QUOTE]

I think the point is that with the TB thread people kept listing great TBs as if that would prove that a high performance TB was the norm and not an exception.

Listing breeders who also ride is the same pointless exercise. Of course they exist, but even if you list 100 great rider/breeders it doesn’t mean that most or all great breeders are also great riders.

[Donella]

Listing breeders who also ride is the same pointless exercise. Of course they exist, but even if you list 100 great rider/breeders it doesn’t mean that most or all great breeders are also great riders

Again, there is not one person here that is arguing that “all great breeders are also riders”. Not even close. I am arguing that breeders who ride well are at an advantage. I listed examples of breeders who also ride and their successes simply because I do believe that if a really good rider is also passionate about breeding, they DO have the advantage over a breeder who does not ride. The more knowledge you have the more likely it is that you are going to be good at what you do.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Donella;7682751]

Listing breeders who also ride is the same pointless exercise. Of course they exist, but even if you list 100 great rider/breeders it doesn’t mean that most or all great breeders are also great riders

Again, there is not one person here that is arguing that “all great breeders are also riders”. Not even close. I am arguing that breeders who ride well are at an advantage. I listed examples of breeders who also ride and their successes simply because I do believe that if a really good rider is also passionate about breeding, they DO have the advantage over a breeder who does not ride. The more knowledge you have the more likely it is that you are going to be good at what you do.[/QUOTE]

Donella…no one is arguing with this^^^ either.

If you or anyone thinks that you can breed better horses by riding the mares you breed…great ! It sure can’t hurt Some of us are just saying that is is not necessary. You can learn all you need to know from the ground and with some input from a MPT if the breeder chooses to send her.

Most of the top producing mares in Europe have never had a saddle on their back but if they did , they were only made up as a 3 yr old for a very short MPT and then put directly in foal.

[Nikki]

[QUOTE=Zuri;7682000]
I am a novice breeder, so please forgive me if this question sounds silly.

In your experience, when breeding Holsteiners, TB for sport and other WB breeds, what factors do you give the most weight to when pairing a mare and a stallion?[/QUOTE]

I would like to know too! This is what I LOVE about the SHB section: The opportunity to learn from the very best! Bayhawk has such immense knowledge of the Holsteiner breed that he should have a PhD! Dr. Bayhawk, PhD, Holsteiner breeding.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Nikki^;7683514]
I would like to know too! This is what I LOVE about the SHB section: The opportunity to learn from the very best! Bayhawk has such immense knowledge of the Holsteiner breed that he should have a PhD! Dr. Bayhawk, PhD, Holsteiner breeding. :D[/QUOTE]

Oh…I don’t think so. I’m still learning every day…but thank you for the compliment !

The one thing you have to do when breeding is match strengths to weaknesses and then hope it works.

Breeding the best to the best rarely works…strengths to weaknesses is a far better approach.

This is where knowledge of your mare family is crucial. You have to understand where they are weak and pick a stallion accordingly.

[D_BaldStockings]

If you can find a stallion who sires good horses when used on mares similar to your own in family and type, that is ideal.

You do need to know what she is capable of passing on from her family, not just hw she appears as an individual.

And mares without decent temperaments, fertility, mothering ability, health and long term soundness are rarely viable broodmare candidates, no matter how well they perform. Stallions the same.

If you are a market breeder, the latest ‘hot thing’ will bring buyers, but not necessarily improve on your mare or add to the future gene pool by breeding on.

[Nikki]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7683805]
Oh…I don’t think so. I’m still learning every day…but thank you for the compliment !

The one thing you have to do when breeding is match strengths to weaknesses and then hope it works.

Breeding the best to the best rarely works…strengths to weaknesses is a far better approach.

This is where knowledge of your mare family is crucial. You have to understand where they are weak and pick a stallion accordingly.[/QUOTE]

You’re welcome! I respect a person who is very humble and though has great knowledge in a field of study (medical is mine), is willing to learn more and admits they don’t know it all.

I learn something new every time I read your posts. Thank you so sharing your love and knowledge of breeding horses.

[4wdNstraight]

One thing nobody mentioned about riders being breeders, is that those horses are already in the hands of people who can develop their potential. At least the ones who people have listed on this thread. If you don’t ride or breed for yourself, then you have to get your horses in the capable hands of someone who can develop potential. Not always an easy task when breeding for business. You can do your best to screen your buyers, but there are still many factors that can interrupt that cycle. Wittig is an amazing rider, as are the rest or those named. I would almost guarantee these riders noted can get the most from any horse as they are all top.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Nikki^;7684125]
You’re welcome! I respect a person who is very humble and though has great knowledge in a field of study (medical is mine), is willing to learn more and admits they don’t know it all.

I learn something new every time I read your posts. Thank you so sharing your love and knowledge of breeding horses. :D[/QUOTE]

Smiling this morning drinking my coffee and reading this ! I am so glad you learn something (even though I get pissy sometimes) as this is the most important thing.

Respect for you Nikki…I know you will become what you want to be !

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7682240]
This is turning into the tb thread all over again.[/QUOTE]

I disagree–this thread, while a bit off the original topic, is an interesting “conversation” about what makes a good breeder. I appreciate the information, also that there has been minimal snark.

I also appreciate the discussion on breeding for the gene pool vs the market and how a small breeder (that would be me–very VERY small) can get their horses seen and shown. I used to ride a lot, years ago (never at the level I’d like to see my horses achieve), but don’t so much anymore–too busy doing all the other “farm chores.”

[andy.smaga]

This is just my 2 cents, or food for thought.
Not so long ago the best stallions never competed, today the top stallions are top performers (at least 90%)
Do you think that broodmares can follow the same route if they have a decent temperaments, fertility, reasonable conformation, health and long term soundness. (we ask the same for a stallion)
Mares can be tested until they are 6y/o to confirm that they are better than average as a competitor. (don’t forget that today a mare can compete and breed at the same time, that wasn’t available some years ago)
Do you see this trend increasing in the future or do you think that knowing very well the maternal family is enough ?

[Manni01]

talking about broodmares… I think P.Schockemoehle was cited as somebody who does not ride his mares… maybe, but he works with recipient mares. The mares who he thinks to be outstanding produce 7 to 10 foals in 2 to 3 years and than they are backed and become performance horses… When they are backed with 5 after having produced 8 foals they are in the best age actually…