Contesting scores

[enjoytheride]

Having just spent 11 hour days score running, XC scoring isn’t always easy.

Each JJ may have a radio, and XC scoring is listening to multiple people calling in fences at the same time. Add in human error, people inexperienced with using radios, bad signal, batteries dying, etc. Then a score running picks up the paper score sheets which are hopefully clearly marked and haven’t disintegrated due to rain. The paper sheets are “official” but there can be discrepancies and in some cases you might not have a sheet like if the JJ loses it, it blows away, or falls apart in bad weather. Mistakes absolutely happen, especially when eventing relies so strongly on volunteers.

I have seen riders miss a fence, jump the wrong fence, or have clear stops or backward steps and not even remember it. I wouldn’t necessarily jump to bad sportsmanship. I have also seen the TD driving out to fences to gain clarification from a JJ who is confused about what they saw.

If someone feels a fence was recorded wrong they can ask to speak to the TD. Riders can be very heated about this and I’m glad TD is a paid position but they really do the research for the riders. I think riders should also be aware that TDs can be pretty busy and can’t always instantly respond.

[Janet]

@Xanthoria

A rider missed an entire jump on xc at our area championship last year and took home a ribbon and prizes: the jump judge recorded the mistake but the scorer missed it, from what I heard. And nothing could be done.

Transcription errors (it looks as if that is what happened here) can be corrected until 3 p.m. the day following the last day of the Event.

[Rel6]

I didn’t see the original post, so this may not apply, but there are times where it might not feel like a stop but clearly was one from the ground (you feel a hesitation but not complete lack of forward motion or tiny step backward, when there definitely was one). I’ve seen that happen with a green horse who was sticky off the ground but not full on stopping, whirling away from the fence with a need to represent.

[emeraldcity]

@enjoytheride

Each JJ may have a radio, and XC scoring is listening to multiple people calling in fences at the same time. Add in human error, people inexperienced with using radios, bad signal, batteries dying, etc. Then a score running picks up the paper score sheets which are hopefully clearly marked and haven’t disintegrated due to rain. The paper sheets are supposed to be back up in case anything is missed on the radio. Mistakes absolutely happen, especially when eventing relies so strongly on volunteers.

Just a point of clarification- the paper sheets ARE the scoring. The radios are just for control to keep track/for the announcer if applicable. Scoring doesn’t happen off the radio, unless something major has changed in the last couple of years.

[enjoytheride]

I have not seen that in my area, xc scoring always has radios.

[Xanthoria]

Sadly nobody knew it happened until weeks later when the pro video was uploaded, by which time it was much too late. Neither USEA nor the head of our area responded to an event evaluation either.

[CodyNKR]

Actually emeraldcity, there are some shows that scoring is done by radio sitting out on XC. The paper jj sheets are the backup. I’m sure not all shows do this. But in a way to help the riders know about any issues and to get their scores quicker than an hr or more after they finish, a number of shows have gone to this system. It takes great teamwork on xc for this to work successfully.

[initiate1987]

This is interesting because at every event I’ve ever jump judged at (all over Area 1), I’ve always been told by the TD at the briefing that the paper are the official scores. I’d lose track of how many times JJ’s talk over each other while radioing in.

[Janet]

@CodyNKR

Actually emeraldcity, there are some shows that scoring is done by radio sitting out on XC. The paper jj sheets are the backup. I’m sure not all shows do this. But in a way to help the riders know about any issues and to get their scores quicker than an hr or more after they finish, a number of shows have gone to this system. It takes great teamwork on xc for this to work successfully.

If the radio report and the written report are DIFFERENT, which one counts?

[enjoytheride]

At the last show I worked at, the paper JJ sheets were disintegrating in the rain.

[Highflyer1]

Everywhere I’ve ever seen this done, the paper sheets are the official version.

[beowulf]

@initiate1987

This is interesting because at every event I’ve ever jump judged at (all over Area 1), I’ve always been told by the TD at the briefing that the paper are the official scores. I’d lose track of how many times JJ’s talk over each other while radioing in.

I can corroborate the above as another perennial Area 1 (and Area 2 for a few years) volunteer. I have never had radio scoring be the main method for scoring. For most of those events our walkie talkies were for emergencies / holds only.

I have just the one event that I can think of that gave walkie talkies to radio in when riders cleared fences on a separate channel, but this was a very well known venue in Area 2. There was someone back at the scoring booth who was running tally as a supplement to our written records, but it did not replace written records.

[Beam_Me_Up]

I’ve always had a radio to report my fence as a JJ (Area 2), but I thought those reports were mostly used by the controller (where, in Xanthoria’s example, they could have pulled up the rider that skipped a fence, if they confirmed it in time).

I have several times seen scores incorrectly transcribed (either fat fingered or attributed to the wrong rider) which required the scorer to go back to the judge’s sheets to confirm.

Once I had a stop marked when I circled between the last 2 fences (was in a tie), the controller announced I’d had a stop, so the JJ wrote it down as such, but when I inquired it was easy to sort out (even though it was recorded as a 20 by the JJ).

[pony_grandma]

I’ve sat w a controller and I kept a log for the calls but they were the back-up for the JJ sheets.

A tip - for score runners. Always eyeball the sheets when you pick them up to look for empty lines. Easier to catch it while at the fence.

And JJ’s always write a brief description of horse/rider for some memory recall and to back up any comments you enter for any inquiries.

Most controllers have a magnetic board and some magnetic pieces that they move around on the course for where the two horses are on course (one on 1st 1/2, other on last 1/2). And count refusals.

[emeraldcity]

Yeah this… I can’t imagine how anyone could possibly get all the correct information off the radios. It’s SUPER easy for people to talk over each other unknowingly. I’ve always been instructed to call in every fence on the radio as long as it was possible (multiple A1 and A2 events), but things do get missed and we have always been instructed not to call anything in if there is a fall being handled or some other important thing going on. The cross country controller uses this information to make sure things are flowing and no one gets lost, and if there’s an announcer they may use it to announce, but it is NOT scoring. The paper sheets are official. I’ve always been given a ziploc or something to keep them in if it’s going to be wet and I can’t be in a car. Typically someone drives around on an ATV between divisions to pick up the sheets. Maybe a TD can offer clarification on whether there’s an official rule on this, but this process has been essentially the same at every event I’ve ever JJ’d at, multiple across two areas with different management, so I think it’s pretty standard.

[Larksmom]

I am jump judging this weekend, and it looks like rain. We have always had some sort of plastic for a cover of the paper. It is a major pita, but jump judging in the rain isn’t fun anyway.

[skydy]

@Janet is a TD.

[fanfayre]

Waterproof paper! It’s a thing! A little more expensive than regular paper but it won’t fall apart and ink and pencil will stand up in the heaviest of rain.
Maybe suggest it to the organizers?
and for you to stay warm, if not dry…

Edited to say this was more of a generic suggestion to any organizers, even though I directed it to @Larksmom. The H2O-proof paper can be printed just like normal paper so the score sheets can be printed but the ink or pencil won’t run. Here;s an example Waterproof paper

As another generic thought, since “everybody” (almost) has phone cameras now, jjs could take a photo at end of each division judged or before runners collect that score sheet as back-up?

[Larksmom]

well they are much more experienced than I and they would have to have the paper to have it ‘marked up’ for use as a scoring sheet. I have heard there are (or were a month ago,) only about 40 horses entered, and if that is so, they are gonna take a bath financially.

[Syrynx]

I just JJ’d last weekend and people were talking over each other on the radio, the horses went out every 2 min so that was hard to avoid.

When I score on the sheet, along with the number, I generally write down a quick description of the horse and the riders colors just to add a bit more clarity if anything contested.