Correct extended trot

[bestchestnutmareever]

Technical question. This photo is said to be a great example of the extended trot. I agree it’s much better than a lot of the ones you see nowadays (the entire body extends, including the head/neck/nose). However, I’m speculating that that inside hind leg is already coming off the ground, while the outside front is still fully loadbearing. This would mean the horse is in a state of negative DAP (diagonal advanced placement), where the front leg lands before the hind leg, putting the horse on the forehand. If this is true, the front leg is taking a lot of stress with it being the only one on the ground at this point!

What do you guys think? Is the inside hind leg on the ground or is it not?

Someone told me that as long as the angles of the hind legs matched the angles of the front, it is a correct trot. However, this one, if you really do the math, is somewhat close but still off by 4 degrees.

Thoughts?

(Also if anyone has the complete photo showing the entire hind leg, that would be great to see!)

[Mondo]

No answer to your question, but I have to ask, are you an engineer? Honestly, I’ve never ever thought so hard about extended trot, or any movement, that I measured the degree of angle on the horse’s legs! I’m not dissing you at all. I just hate math. It makes my head hurt. Geometry included. I just know a good extended trot when I see one. The picture (appears old) that you posted looks great to me.

[bestchestnutmareever]

Haha, no I’m not but I’ve been known to be a bit of a nerd.

I think the little technical things can tell us about how the horse is actually using himself. I’m not in a habit of measuring legs lol but I like developing my eye and sometimes math helps.

[atr]

4 degrees? I’m guessing you might be able to build a robot that was closer to perfect, but I’m not entirely sure you would expect a living, breathing, organic being to get much better than that–and do you know that this picture was taken at exactly the sweet spot in the stride?

[rosinante]

So, I drop lines (blue) from the image you posted and get perfectly parallel lines.

[BigMama1]

It looks pretty close to what the experts tell us is “ideal.” When freezing a photo or video to a frame less than a second in length, we are going to see things the eye can’t. We can pick them apart or we can acknowledge that the objective is to be as close to the ideal as possible, but that perfection is rare. There’s a reason a 10 in dressage doesn’t equate to “perfect.”

[lorilu]

Frankly that looks more like a lengthened trot from First level than an Extended trot. If the front foot stays on the ground longer than the hind the horse is on the forehand. For me, an Extended trot needs more push from the haunches and an engaged hindquarters, since extension comes out of collection.
I believe at one time the terms “lengthened” and “extended “ were fairly interchangeable , or “lengthened” did not exist as a term…( I could really be wrong here).
. This is from the USDF Glossary of Judging Terms : EXTENSION/EXTENDED (WALK, TROT, OR CANTER)
At trot and canter, a pace that shows maximum length of stride, frame, and phase of suspension. The uphill balance is greater than in the lengthening pace. The tempo remains nearly the same as in the collected pace.
At walk, a pace with maximum length of stride and frame, and showing the natural longitudinal oscillation of the neck (while still remaining on contact). The hind feet touch the ground clearly in front of the prints of the forefeet.

[lorilu]

I realize I should have added the glossary definition of “lengthening “. Notice the comment about uphill balance.
LENGTHENING OF STRIDE
A pace at trot and canter in which the stride, frame and phase of suspension are longer than in the working pace, but the degree of uphill balance required in the medium pace is not expected. The tempo remains nearly the same as in the working pace.

[enjoytheride]

We just had a big thread about this. You can do a lot with freeze frames to make whatever point you want.

[sascha]

@lorilu

the front foot stays on the ground longer than the hind the horse is on the forehand.

Think about it in reverse to really bend your brain. If the hind leg lands first (taking the brunt of the weight after the moment of suspension) it will also leave the ground first. If the horse is in an uphill balance, that front leg is not going to have the brunt of the weight on it.

Not necessarily saying that’s what’s happening in this image because a horse can have a quick hind end and still be on the forehand … but, if the hind end is developed to carry more (as much) weight than (as) the front end, that leg is probably taking less weight than it would be during the final pre-suspension phase of the canter.

[atlatl]

@bestchestnutmareever

Technical question. This photo is said to be a great example of the extended trot. I agree it’s much better than a lot of the ones you see nowadays (the entire body extends, including the head/neck/nose). However, I’m speculating that that inside hind leg is already coming off the ground, while the outside front is still fully loadbearing. This would mean the horse is in a state of negative DAP (diagonal advanced placement), where the front leg lands before the hind leg, putting the horse on the forehand. If this is true, the front leg is taking a lot of stress with it being the only one on the ground at this point!

What do you guys think? Is the inside hind leg on the ground or is it not?

Someone told me that as long as the angles of the hind legs matched the angles of the front, it is a correct trot. However, this one, if you really do the math, is somewhat close but still off by 4 degrees.
…

That’s a pretty old picture.

I can’t tell from the picture if the hind leg is off the ground or not. I suspect it is and you’re correct that’s negative DAP, however, it could be that hind leg just isn’t flexed completely at the moment in time the photo was taken.

What I don’t like about the picture is that the horse isn’t through and the back appears, IMO, to be dropped.

Even in this picture, the inside hind is coming off the ground slightly before the outside fore, but I’d take it any day of the week. Again, it’s a moment in time captured on film, who knows if you’d see it with the naked eye.

Then there’s this one…

[2tempe]

Does the last picture qualify as suspension?

[J-Lu]

I can’t see the hind leg in the picture. The picture is in B& W and the rider is riding in hunt tack. I suspect this in an old picture which doesn’t really apply to modern bred dressage horses.

Look at the stretch at the base of the front legs. That’s incredible. The horse is very uphill. This picture has limited application to modern sport horses.

[rosinante]

@atlatl

That’s a pretty old picture.

The image under discussion is that of Franz Mairinger riding Gay Pam. It is probably from the 1950-1960’s when he was coach of the Australian Team. Mairinger was a former rider of the SRS and emigrated to Australia in 1950’s. He also wrote the book Horses Were Made to be Horses.

FMI…Tribute to Franz Mairinger

[endlessclimb]

@lorilu

If the front foot stays on the ground longer than the hind the horse is on the forehand.

Ehhh, I see a LOT of proper extensions where the hind and fore aren’t quite in sync and the horse is by no means on the forehand. See the photos of Valegro that @atlatl posted.

[atlatl]

The horse in the B&W photo “appears” to be running to me. I don’t mean galloping, I mean not pushing from behind, again with the back dropped. Look right behind the saddle.

I find the second photo of Valegro especially impressive because it’s obvious to the eye that the photo is taken somewhat downhill from right to left, Charlotte is leaning forward and the horse is crazy uphill!

There’s a reason many horse sales pictures are taken uphill; it makes the horse look more uphill than they really are!

[atlatl]

@rosinante

@atlatl

That’s a pretty old picture.

The image under discussion is that of Franz Mairinger riding Gay Pam. It is probably from the 1950-1960’s when he was coach of the Australian Team. …

I’m from the 50s and 60s; I consider myself pretty old too!

[JB]

@rosinante

So, I drop lines (blue) from the image you posted and get perfectly parallel lines.

IMHO those are the more correct angles to look at for purity of gait.

In extension, the hind leg cannon is going to be less than a front leg in rearward extension, unless maybe the hind leg is really trailing, or is too straight by conformation. The front leg is a straight limb, the hind leg isn’t.

I’ve never even seen a credible source look at the legs coming off the ground to gauge the quality of the trot, always the legs in the forward position.

[bestchestnutmareever]

Why does it have limited application to today’s horses? The rules of dressage should be the same.

[bestchestnutmareever]

But if the entire weight of the horse is being supported by ONE front limb, in a gait that is supposed to be evenly 2 beat/diagonal, how is that not synonomous to being on the front end?