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Correct extended trot

Does a correct trot depend on breeding, modern or otherwise? A correct extended trot surely is linked to the quality of the other trots that may be achieved by an individual horse. And an individual horse will trot according to level of fitness, training, time of day, mood, new shoes, working at home or at a show… And, of course, the trot is the one gait that is heavily influenced by training, walk and canter far less so. Any photo is, literally, a snap shot of a dynamic process lol.

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Because a fraction of a second, a moment in time, does not correlate to an actual moving animal and where their weight is being carried.

Imagine an animal going up a hill. The weight is on the hindquarters, no matter which foot is on the ground for a picture.

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If you read the previous thread at all you can take a screen cap from pretty much and get the exact same picture. It doesn’t mean anything. No real trainer would use still photos to make a point. Its the same as all the magical before and after photos in another thread.

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In that image, the entire weight isn’t supported on that LF though. The breakover has started even if we can’t see that at least the heel has started to become unweighted. It’s unfortunate we can’t see the RH, as it may be that the toe is juuuuust off the ground, meaning a split second ago, it was bearing the last of its weight along with the LF.

It’s just not accurate that DAP is automatically indicative of an impure gait, or a horse being on the front end. There’s more to it than that. I wish I could find it again but I saw something a few months ago indicating that DAP is a lot more common than most think, and has gotten a lot more (negative) press, because in real time, it’s really impossible to see. It’s only the more modern inventions of slo-mo and still shots from videos where it’s become much more easily visible along with people starting to actively look for and at it.

Agree, the OP image is just as relevant today as then

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Perhaps because those older dressage horses were, for the most part, “eventers” at their core - remember the German school came out of their cavalry. TOday’s International- and upper level dressage horses are more likely to be purpose-bred…

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Modern “competitive dressage” was born out of the cavalry and what used to be called the “campaign school.” This differed from the “manege school” which was the art of riding in the manege (riding school) as is seen in the old baroque illustrations.

The campaign school was the use of the horse by the modern cavalry. When Baron deCoubertin started the modern Olympics, the representative from each nation in the equestrian sports came from the military. Civilians did not ride in the Olympics until after WWII.

I remember when the 3-Day was called the “military competition.”

As far as “modern purpose-bred horse”… just remember what happened to the German Shepherd Dog (hip dysplasia), the bulldog (cannot have vaginal birth)…etc when judges started to value certain characteristics in the animal. For the GSD, it was the “crouchy walk,” for the bulldogs, it was the big shoulders that got so big they did not fit thru the vaginal birth canal.

When the dressage judges started to award points for “brilliance” in the trot, the breeders started to produce horses that had exagerated front end action…to the point where you now see the dissociated trots seen in some horses in current competition.

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Thanks! I think that breeding and riding has greatly changed from the time of that picture until today. The trot picture, especially the first picture, is just a snapshot in time at that moment in that stride . These days, trot pictures are often culled from high-quality video and the person providing it can choose from any moment in the video. Riding and aids are different in a hunt saddle than a dressage saddle. Horses today score higher on all movements and gait scores than they did 60 years ago. Horses are usually better balanced today than they were 60 years ago. Can a hunter horse today produce a correct extended trot? Sure. Are they usually trained for it? I don’t think so. The canter quality is the gold in hunters. The trot is the easiest gait to develop. Consider my comments in the context of the Original Post.

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That doesn’t mean the movement is any better. Proof of that is in the large number of leg-flingers who are moving in disunited manners who are winning classes.

According to what criteria?

Hunters don’t do remotely the level of training required to do a correct extended trot. But yes, any reasonably well-built horse could do a reasonably good extended trot at any given point in time, they just couldn’t maintain it

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As I mentioned, horses today score higher on all movements and gait scores than they did 60 years ago. Yes, it does mean the movement is better. Your beef with judging is a whole different topic.

According to biomechanics. Horses are better balanced for dressage these days due to focused breeding.

Yep, hunters often can’t produce the “correct” extended trot the OP described due to differences in their training. Extended trot has to be trained to occur on demand rather than on a spooky or nervous horse.
Thanks for agreeing with me.

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Scoring higher does not mean the movement is better. Judges aren’t infallible and often (usually) nowadays reward flashy expressive movement that is NOT balanced, horses excessively BTV, bracing against the rider’s hands (brace in the poll and neck means brace in the rest of the body), hypermobility. Oddly enough, looking at Isabel Werth’s performances and scores, apparently your reputation dictates your score too even if your performance was awful.

I do think with the types of horses that are being bred today it doesn’t take much skill to achieve what the judges reward. So we have more talented horses with less skilled riders (compared to 1900s) leading to incorrect imbalanced movement the vast majority of the time because it takes very little to get more flash/leg action. Whereas historically, the horses were probably less talented but the riders were probably more skilled, meaning the end result ended up being a more balanced correct mover.

Balanced does not equal flashy.

I would sooner have a good, correct, economic mover than a super flashy one.

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Scoring higher does indicate better whatever.

Current dressage horses are better movers than 60 years ago. Do you disagree?

Isabell Werth is a great rider and trainer. It is strange that you disagree with this fact. It is odd that you think today’s riders are less skilled than riders from the last century. You seemingly don’t understand what it takes to ride modern sport horses. Your description of horses and trainers/riders in the last century isn’t accurate. Modern sport horses are hotter/more sensitive and more athletic than horses of the last century.

No one said balance equals flashy except for you.

You can have an economical mover. Does that mover produce a correct extended trot according to the OP?

Horses today require just as much skill to ride because they are more sensitive. Warmblood breeders included TBs and Arabians to produce lighter and more sensitive horses for a reason.

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This is an interesting discussion. In my opinion any functional horse can do an extended trot. Whether or not a rider can achieve one that is balanced and rhythmical is another issue. Or whether a particular discipline, such as the hunter show ring, ever asks for one. Or if modern dressage horses have “better gaits” than older horses. The aims of correct riding haven’t changed over time. Here is a not dressage, not warmblood horse Welsh Cob extended trot to have a look - though it is in motion rather than a single snapshot

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Excellent trot.

From DR104.4

> Extended trot. The horse covers as much ground as possible. Without hurrying, the steps are lengthened to the utmost as a result of great impulsion from the hindquarters. The rider allows the horse to lengthen the frame and to gain ground whilst controlling the poll. The fore feet should touch the ground on the spot towards which they are pointing. The movement of the fore and hind legs should reach equally forward in the moment of extension. The whole movement should be well-balanced and the transition to collected trot should be smoothly executed by taking more weight on the hindquarters.
.

Shows all the criteria of an extended trot that merits high mark were it in competition as it checks off all the boxes of the criteria.

IMO…the mistake in the rulebook is that riders are not allowed to post the extended trots in upper level competition, thus constricting the horse’s motion.

The postillions invented the trot for a reason…to get off the horse’s back so as not to sore the horse when travelling long distances…and to save their own backs from pounding in an extended road gait.

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There’s a huge difference between the ability of any general horse being able to extend their trot, and a horse being able to do an extended trot suitable for upper level dressage. The lovely welsh cob in your video is indeed extending his trot but his missing many other marks that would make that a dressage extended trot and he would not score well a test if presented in that manner.

Here is the exact same breed performing an extended trot suitable for dressage scoring

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Ok…I will admit that maybe I am blind, but I quoted the rulebook above. Can you point out where the Welsh Cob in the trail ride is NOT meeting the requirements of the rules?

For reminder, the rule are stated below

*DR 104.4 Extended trot. The horse covers as much ground as possible . Without hurrying, the steps are lengthened to the utmost as a result of great impulsion from the hindquarters. The rider allows the horse to lengthen the frame and to gain ground whilst controlling the poll. The fore feet should touch the ground on the spot towards which they are pointing. The movement of the fore and hind legs should reach equally forward in the moment of extension . The whole movement should be well-balanced and the transition to collected trot should be smoothly executed by taking more weight on the hindquarters.

Also the General Directives, DR 101.2-3

  1. These qualities are demonstrated by:
    a. The freedom and regularity of the gaits;
    b. The harmony, lightness, and ease of the movements;
    c. The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters, originating from a lively impulsion;
    d. The acceptance of the bit, with submissiveness/throughness (Durchlässigkeit) without any tension or
    resistance.
  2. The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the rider, remaining absolutely straight in any movement on a straight
    line and bending accordingly when moving on curved lines.

I find the trail horse to be a much better example of the directives for lightness, harmony, ease of movements that are stated in the General Principles…especially, The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required.

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I do have a beef with the judging because it’s a fact that a lot of high scores are given to leg flingers who aren’t showing pure gaits. Scores are entirely subjective, and higher does not equate to a better movement. One only has to look at the QH Halter world, the Americanized German Shepherd, and more, to find that fashionable trends that trump actual correct, functional animals, are proof that higher scores != higher quality.

what biomechanics? One can argue (and the argument has already been had) that the breeding for long-legged loose-goosey horses that brought in hypermobility issues has been detrimental to the breeding world, resulting in lots of these leg flingers.

As a whole? I don’t agree. But it’s really not possible to objectively prove one way or the other, because there’s the human aspect of things - training. One can look at 50 pictures from 60 years ago, and see way more pictures of top horses with less flash, horses with polls at their highest, faces slightly in front of vertical, and compare to 50 pictures of top horses to day to see a lot more broken at C3, horses at or behind the vertical, and flashy fronts ends with trailing hind ends. You can’t say the latter is more correct, but you can also can’t say that is a result of breeding, as most of it as a result of incorrect trianing.

Less about skill, as any of them can outride me for the next 100 years But people train (and breed) for what judges reward, with exceptions I know several people who got out of showing Dressage purely because they were not willing to train their horses to the bastardized versions of “correct movement” that is being rewarded today.

Hotter and more athletic != more correct movement.

If his conformaiton and training are correct. absolutely. The question is - and this is the crux of this entire thread - will the judge in front of him give a high score for being correct and pure, or will he score him lower than less correct/pure but flashier horse. There are judges for both outcomes, and the latter judge is part of the problem.

I would argue that’s a lengthened trot. He’s not shifted back in his weight for a more true extended trot.

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While I agree with your points above, I don’t agree that this is a lengthening vs an extended trot. Nowhere in the rules does it say that the horse needs to “shift its weight back.”

Look at the directives of the rulebook. The trail horse seems to meet all the criteria as stated in the requirements for extended trot.

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Totally agree JB.

Scoring higher does indicate better whatever.

Assuming the judges understand balanced movement. Which doesn’t seem to be the case today a lot of the time.

Isabell Werth is a great rider and trainer. It is strange that you disagree with this fact.

Not strange when you understand CORRECT biomechanics. Other than the scores she’s received, what is so “great” about how her horses’ movement and balance?

No one said balance equals flashy except for you.

In fact if you read my post more carefully I said the opposite.

Horses today require just as much skill to ride because they are more sensitive.

Well generally yes - hot horses do require more skill TO ACHIEVE BALANCE . . . however when you have a hot, talented horse and you drive them forward into a very strong restraining hand (with nosebands so they can’t evade contact, rider leaning back bracing against the saddle, pulling them BTV) you get all flash, no balance. That takes NO horsemanship skill to achieve.

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The trail Welsh is not through. It isn’t on the contact. Lovely horse though.

An extended trot lengthens the frame but continues the power from the hind leg out to the bit. That is what is missing.

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I dont see much of this awful riding or bad movement being rewarded in the upper levels of TODAY. Not talking about 15 or 20 years ago. There were certainly some issues then, and I think a lot of people are stuck on that and haven’t seen how the sport has improved.

Look at Charlotte Fry and Glamordale, for instance, at the very top levels of international sport. Or in this country, Lehua Custer and her horses, or any one of a number of younger riders i have been watching on the AGDF livestream this winter with great pleasure. These are fabulous, sympathetic riders on lovely, correctly trained horses with correct gaits.

Will you still see awful riding of incorrect horses if you go looking for it? Yes you will. Is it being rewarded in competition? Generally not, unless you are out here in the hinterlands and everything else is even more awful and the judge has to place someone first, but even then the scores are just less bad rather than good.

All this is different to the flashy sales and breeding advertising exhibitions that are an entirely other kettle of fish that has nothing to do with real life riding.

And IWs top horses certainly seem to have long and sound lives.

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