A question for the knowledge dressage folks here, (I’m new to it all, from trail/hunterland) in the discussion about the cob trotting there was mention of being “on the bit” and “through.” So my question is, are both of these horses “through” and" on the bit"?
Because they look not the same to me in how they are going and I’d like to understand what I’m looking at.
Mildly off topic but I feel so fortunate to be around while Valegro and CDJ were competing together. What a special horse and partnership.
The top one is trotting and the bottom is in passage. The entire premise of comparing is ludicrous. You are right they look different for MANY reasons.
I’m just reading your posts here. That’s all I have to go on. You were pretty negative about dressage these days in what you posted and stated many people you know left the sport because of what they think it promotes today. Please go back an look at what you posted, esp that judges reward “leg flingers” these days. That’s kind of a comment on the entire discipline.
I get where you are coming from. Many disciplines have a strange idea of “good”. But I also think that correctly trained trumps “leg flingers” in dressage. I won Regional Champ at third and Reserve at fourth without a “leg-flinger” but very correct rides. In eventing, I think the most correct horses for the discipline wins. I’m in awe of M. Jung and what he produces. But he produces it in very talented, well-bred horses. He finds the jewels.
I disagree that the sport rewards “leg-flingers” as you stated that judging does today. Sure, maybe some judge do but quite a few don’t. I agree that man-made aesthetics shouldn’t be rewarded above functional movement. I HATE, for example, Western Pleasure. Yep, I took my dressage horse to QH shows with a friend to desensitize him as a youngster. The WP horses amble. The ranch horses had recognizable gaits.
So you are saying this to some one who admittedly doesn’t know from these pictures, hence the question.
Not that my opinion matters to you, i can tell, but my ludicrous question is one of ignorance, and I’m willing to accept that i don’t know. You should know that your brusqueness feeds into the DQ snobby stereotype.
But oh, thanks for telling me I’m right they are different. Yay.
He may have topped out with her but I hope he hasn’t topped out, since he’s intended to be a potential Olympic mount for his new owner!
There is nothing easy about training, whether a horse is a flashy mover or not. In fact I’d argue that it’s harder, since a horse that has a natural tendency to be out behind, or to have an extravagant front end without really being through, like some of the carriage breeds, is going to be harder to collect.
But I suspect the comment was meant less to be about horses and more about how judges don’t know what to look for anymore and all are blinded by flashy movers, rewarding “incorrect” dressage, blah, blah, blah.
Many of us don’t have big saddle blocks and Catherine Haddad (love her or not) does not ride at the Olympic level with any thigh blocks. I rode in her saddle once after she rode my horse and I have to say it wasn’t a huge deal (my thigh blocks at the time were pretty minimal). The huge moving horses are hard to ride because of the bounce. Huge moving doesn’t mean correct. A correctly moving horse is a TON easier to sit than an incorrectly moving horse. But correctly moving huge mover is not easy to sit to unless you are physically fit and even then…
Sorry you felt insulted, I didn’t take that comment that way, more of a “apples and oranges” but can see your POV.
Anyway, here’s a link to the glossary of judging terms
https://www.usdf.org/glossary/
THROUGHNESS/THROUGH
An equestrian term which means the supple, elastic, unblocked, connected state of the horse’s musculature and a willing mental state that permits an unrestricted flow of energy from back to front and front to back (circle of the aids), which allows the aids/influences to go through all parts of the horse. (See Pyramid of Training for complete explanation).
ON THE BIT
Acceptance of contact (without resistance or evasion) with a stretched topline and with lateral and longitudinal flexion as required. The horse’s face line is, as a rule, slightly in front of the vertical.
I think both are on the bit and through, but as mentioned, that looks different for trot and passage. Also, and I’m not going to criticize Klimke ever, I suspect the top photo is significantly more recent so likely a more modern equine athlete.
ETA: I always chuckle when the whole “poll is the highest point” comes up; does nobody else see the ears?? 
In these snapshots in time, the top horse is not truly through/on the bit, the bottom horse is.
In the top, the hind end is trailing a bit, not as engaged as it should be. The whole horse has a look of a bit on the forehand
The bottom horse has a more engaged hind end, and if you could imagine him a split second later in the same stride phase as the first horse, you’d see the whole picture is more up.
Are you talking about the 2 photos I posted? What makes you say that’s Passage? Even if it was (and I disagree), so what? The comparison is still 100% valid because the ONLY point of comparison was for where the poll is. Not the gait. I stated as such.
Thank you for your response, i am trying to learn but without input from pictures it’s hard to visualize. I am riding and learning to feel when my horse is “through” and “on the bit” but I know i am heavy handed, and am trying to not be that way.
I strongly suggest you look at video rather than still picture “moments in time.”
Nobody was born knowing any of this so welcome to the club. The first time I felt a horse be through, it was like magic, that whole recycling of the energy. I could feel the horse pushing with his hind legs in such a way that I could feel the energy through his back and catch the energy in my hands. Then everything went to hell in a handbasket, but it was a start.
Literally, Stefen Peters told me last month that “experts don’t fall from the sky.”
I agree with @atr that looking at video, many of them, is better than stills.
Have you ridden a big moving warmblood before? I’d think not if you think it’s the knee block keeping you in the seat.
Anyways, look at Ingrid Klimke. Minimal blocks, beautiful seat.
The first horse isn’t as engaged on the hind leg because it is trotting. Passage obviously requires more engagement.
Not sure how to explain the difference to you beyond “engagement of the hind leg and collection.” But of course the second horse is much more engaged and collected. It is doing a more engaged and collected movement.
Training passage is a matter of teaching the horse to engage the hind leg and lift the shoulders over time. We start a “passage-y feel” by collecting the horse and going up and forward. That develops over time into passage. You don’t just push the passage button one day and there it is.
Again, my 2nd level horse works on the passage-y trot a couple of times a week. Because you have to train it. It is a process.
It’s old and fuzzy, but here’s the Klimke / Ahlerich gold medal ride from the 84 Olympics. If you want to tell the trot from the passage in a still of this horse, look at the forearms of the front legs, they are more horizontal to the ground / elevated than in the trot.
I’m not talking about a difference in gait (which I still disagree with, but that’s another discussion 
)
This entire thread started with a picture with the cannon bones of the rearward legs higlighted, and said to be “incorrect” because they weren’t parallel. My first comment on this thread was to agree with rosinante who drew lines on the cannons of the forward-moving legs, which is the more correct way to see if there is engagement behind to match what the front end is doing.
In my first picture, the LH cannon is not the same angle as the RF cannon, which means the hind end is trailing the first, which means there’s not proper engagement, and it shows in the front end where the poll is lower and the neck is slightly broken at C3.
Even in passage, the cannons should be pretty nearly parallel at their highest, as that’s one sign of proper engagement.
My posting those 2 pics had absolutely nothing to do with the gait, I made that clear, twice now. The ONLY point was to show poll position that someone asked about. That’s it. I even said " I don’t know anything about these moments in time" to drive home that their purpose was not to judge ANYthing about the rider, the horse, the movement, what gaits they are. the SOLE purpose was to show the poll. Period.
I am so sorry, I read your post as anti-dressage.
It is very hard to judge a snapshot and tell if a horse is on the bit when the shape of the horse is such as the two pictures. They could both be on the bit. They could neither be. On the bit is a matter of accepting the aids back to front, and being supple from all angles. As a horse goes up the levels, the balance of the horse goes more to the hind end/uphill.
It is not bad to have a photo that isn’t perfect. My horse was a bit unsupple on the left rein today. We worked it out, but there were plenty of ugly moments (hello, when the cat knocked a Blok off the kickwall 20 ft away from us and we did a 180 on the spot!). It is training. Tomorrow he might decide to evade by being less supple to the right. They are horses, not machines. It is a process.
@JB Watch the link from @atlatl. you haven’t made it clear that you agree with me, the second horse is in passage. You insist it is trotting. It isn’t.
Are you willing to admit you were wrong?
It doesn’t even matter if the 2nd horse is in Passage, because that wasn’t the point of the 2 pictures I posted. Nothing about the actual gait was relevant to what I was showing.
It totally is.
If you watch the video, you will see some piaffe/passage work that is very weak around the 9 minute mark at the end. Little hind leg engagement. No top horse could score well with that piaffe/passage now and rightly so.
What is wonderful is the transitions between collection and extension. Our modern tests don’t do enough of that. It is beautiful to watch the transitions. Something to aim for.
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