[QUOTE=hunterjumper25;7639352]
I appreciate “MIKES MCS” and his optimism but honestly, can we all just have a laugh at the idea of any big eq kid going to a track and picking up a TB, and “developing it.” :lol::lol: Karen Healey would have a fit[/QUOTE]
Karen Healey might not allow her riders to do it, but it’s been done. If more trainers encouraged their EQ riders to make it more about the challenge of competing over tough courses and not just about winning, it would be done more often.
[QUOTE=hunterjumper25;7637438]
My mother would have murdered me if she paid for my airfare and hotel etc. to Kentucky (not to mention the shows to qualify for Kentucky, and the cost of regionals etc.) and then I got there and decided not to show out of the “horse’s best interest.” [/QUOTE]
So your mother cares more about the money she has spent than the horse’s welfare? Nice role model. :sigh:
[QUOTE=DownYonder;7639537]
So your mother cares more about the money she has spent than the horse’s welfare? Nice role model. :sigh:[/QUOTE]
Well that was a useless and unnecessary remark.
What kind of “role model” hj25’s mother is or isn’t is not for you to decide or judge. He/she didn’t say their mother was the best or the worst, or even good or bad. Hj25 simply shared the reasons they and many other young riders would have not to refuse the ride based on their own opinion on a totally sound horse. Some people consider the people that have them opportunities before withdrawing from Finals without a real reason. Most kids aren’t as stupid and some treat them; they know how the adults around them think and feel, whether or not they say anything.
Remember, we are talking about a horse that a potential sour grape deemed “tired”. A perfectly fresh horse can appear tired if you don’t know how he/she normally is and you factor in a little anthropomorphizing and the placebo effect.
You KNOW the article rings true, regardless of who wrote it or how you feel about her. You can sling mud and criticize her or protest on a personal level. However, the bottom line is that anytime there is ego or dollars involved with an animal there is going to be abuse and overuse. The ONLY way to protect these wonderful animals is to bring it forward into the light and make rules that are enforced. It is also good to point it out and start the conversation which makes everyone more aware and put it under a microscope so to speak, which is a good thing for the horse! That will make those who overuse these horses perhaps think twice and look over their shoulder wondering who is watching or taking note. Rules are the only way to stop it! I hope every discipline gets looked at and better rules and circumstances make it better for the horse. Unless you have a horse under your saddle, you have nothing, so that horse IS the most integral part of the entire show, training and winning! If you are crying “wolf” – hmmm, maybe you have some guilt. The horses deserve an advocate and if it steps on toes or makes someone uncomfortable - GOOD!
JMHO
PennyG
I completely understand the need for the task force and creating regulations for preparing horses at finals, BUT I don’t see how someone else can predetermine what it will take to get a horse to the ring safely. A horse that was rested between Medal and Maclay finals may need more lunging or riding than one that showed at Washington. A green horse at its first big final may need to jump more jumps than an older schoolmaster. A nervous rider may need extra time on her horse to settle in. If they limit prep and one of these kids gets hurt because her horse is fresh where will the lawsuits end?
Let’s be realistic, those who wish to will simply find a way around the limitations. They will keep the horses off site until the last minute and work them however they want. They will come up with new creative ways to drug their horses. The welfare of most of these horses will not improve.
Hello - these kids are supposed to be riders not decorations . If they fall off because the horse is fresh they should go back to a lunge line. Boo hoo.
[QUOTE=Dinah-do;7639664]
Hello - these kids are supposed to be riders not decorations . If they fall off because the horse is fresh they should go back to a lunge line. Boo hoo.[/QUOTE]
You obviously have never been to or ridden at medal finals.
[QUOTE=Grover;7639647]
I completely understand the need for the task force and creating regulations for preparing horses at finals, BUT I don’t see how someone else can predetermine what it will take to get a horse to the ring safely. A horse that was rested between Medal and Maclay finals may need more lunging or riding than one that showed at Washington. A green horse at its first big final may need to jump more jumps than an older schoolmaster. A nervous rider may need extra time on her horse to settle in. If they limit prep and one of these kids gets hurt because her horse is fresh where will the lawsuits end?
Let’s be realistic, those who wish to will simply find a way around the limitations. They will keep the horses off site until the last minute and work them however they want. They will come up with new creative ways to drug their horses. The welfare of most of these horses will not improve.[/QUOTE]
The issue is there needs to be limits and an enough is enough for the horses. If it takes you 2-3 hours a day of activity for a horse and rider to get into the ring, then the rider is simply not ready or the horse is absolutely not suitable. I do take issue with any horse at any show needing 45 minutes of cantering on the lunge line, an hour of schooling with trainer, then jumping around schooling with junior, then getting 30 minutes of warm up, then jumping 2 dozen jumps in the warm up, then going in the ring, then lather rinse repeat warm up as the day goes on. It’s not just finals where this occurs but 5-6 days a week, 35-45 weeks a year for some horses. The horses in the hunters and equitation are not lasting. When a 10-12 year old horse is considered old it is a problem. It’s not unusual to see a jumper come down the levels or still be performing at pretty high levels in their early 20s. I can think of one high level hunter that has been around the high levels for 10+ years.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;7639465]
Karen Healey might not allow her riders to do it, but it’s been done. If more trainers encouraged their EQ riders to make it more about the challenge of competing over tough courses and not just about winning, it would be done more often.[/QUOTE]
When has it been done in the last 20 or so years?
Not read all comments, but just throwing this out: Throughout 100 mile endurance races, vets take temp, pulse, respiration recovery times and can pull an over tired horse. Wear and tear on joints can’t be measured, but an over tired horse could be checked for in the warm up ring, through the rounds.
[QUOTE=Show boots;7639737]
The issue is there needs to be limits and an enough is enough for the horses. If it takes you 2-3 hours a day of activity for a horse and rider to get into the ring, then the rider is simply not ready or the horse is absolutely not suitable. I do take issue with any horse at any show needing 45 minutes of cantering on the lunge line, an hour of schooling with trainer, then jumping around schooling with junior, then getting 30 minutes of warm up, then jumping 2 dozen jumps in the warm up, then going in the ring, then lather rinse repeat warm up as the day goes on. It’s not just finals where this occurs but 5-6 days a week, 35-45 weeks a year for some horses. The horses in the hunters and equitation are not lasting. When a 10-12 year old horse is considered old it is a problem. It’s not unusual to see a jumper come down the levels or still be performing at pretty high levels in their early 20s. I can think of one high level hunter that has been around the high levels for 10+ years.[/QUOTE]
There’s plenty of older Hunters stepping down the levels just like Jumpers. You just don’t read about the big results when their owners ride in the Ammie classes instead of the Pro in a Derby or at WEF under the lights.
This whole issue is far more complicated then it seems. People can over school off the show grounds away from any USEF oversight all they want-and they do. Or turn to ever more sophisticated versions of liquid lunge line to beat the tests-they do that too.
Its also about under qualified riders mounted on unsuitable horses under the care of sketchy trainers, ignorant owners and the persuit of glory at any and all cost.
The voice may be flawed but there is something worth listening to in what it says.
[QUOTE=busylady;7638988]
Just remember, 7 weeks of showing, 8-12 classes per show. [/QUOTE]
If Lamont(USEF # 5292873) is the horse she was showing then your statement is not accurate unless there were shows that don’t report on USEF. In eleven weeks the horse did show 7 times plus travel to the east coast but it was in 11 weeks not 7 weeks. During these 7 shows the horse showed in a total of 26 classes for an average of 3.7 classes per show. There was one show when she showed in 8 classes but this was followed by a week not showing and another show when she showed in 6 classes.
I’m not saying the horse wasn’t tired or possibly over worked. And I doubt the horse was just rested in between shows. But at least present accurate info as back up.
Please correct me if the info I’m referencing is incorrect
[QUOTE=Cannonball;7639939]
If Lamont(USEF # 5292873) is the horse she was showing then your statement is not accurate unless there were shows that don’t report on USEF. In eleven weeks the horse did show 7 times plus travel to the east coast but it was in 11 weeks not 7 weeks. During these 7 shows the horse showed in a total of 26 classes for an average of 3.7 classes per show. There was one show when she showed in 8 classes but this was followed by a week not showing and another show when she showed in 6 classes.
I’m not saying the horse wasn’t tired or possibly over worked. And I doubt the horse was just rested in between shows. But at least present accurate info as back up.
Please correct me if the info I’m referencing is incorrect[/QUOTE]
You are correct if you are referring to the 2013 show season, but I was referring to the 2014 Thermal circuit.
see: https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseResultsReport.aspx
[QUOTE=busylady;7640022]
You are correct if you are referring to the 2013 show season, but I was referring to the 2014 Thermal circuit.
see: https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseResultsReport.aspx[/QUOTE]
Horse did show a lot, but just a reminder that there is a rest week built into Thermal (apparently for good reason).
[QUOTE=busylady;7640022]
You are correct if you are referring to the 2013 show season, but I was referring to the 2014 Thermal circuit.
see: https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseResultsReport.aspx[/QUOTE]
Ok, but that wasn’t when Olivia Champ was riding the horse. I agree the spring 2014 show record appears to be way too much on a horse. It’s interesting that the horses USEF show record is non existent before August 2013. I guess it was imported and just very suited for Eq.
[QUOTE=findeight;7639871]
There’s plenty of older Hunters stepping down the levels just like Jumpers. You just don’t read about the big results when their owners ride in the Ammie classes instead of the Pro in a Derby or at WEF under the lights.
This whole issue is far more complicated then it seems. People can over school off the show grounds away from any USEF oversight all they want-and they do. Or turn to ever more sophisticated versions of liquid lunge line to beat the tests-they do that too.
Its also about under qualified riders mounted on unsuitable horses under the care of sketchy trainers, ignorant owners and the persuit of glory at any and all cost.
The voice may be flawed but there is something worth listening to in what it says.[/QUOTE]
I’m not going to argue with you but how long are they really lasting at the 3ft and 2’6 levels.
There are plenty of jumpers still jumping the big sticks at 18 years old. There are plenty of jumpers stepping down into the amateur/junior ring and then doing that for a few years and stepping down into the children or adult jumpers. I know quite a few aa jumpers and children jumpers that started their careers 15-16 years ago still quite capable.
I can name one junior hunter that’s been consistently doing the 3’6 for over ten years. Some people and trainers are so concerned about getting one more year in the rated 3’6 divisions or the bigeq that they jeopardize that horses ability to be comfortable at 3ft or 2’6. Im not exaggerating it. I watched it unfold. One eq trainer in particular if the horses brain didn’t break due to the program, it was used up and useless in 9 months.
I have a 20+ year old big eq campaigner. Who still makes it around a 3’6 course just like he was doing 12 years ago. The honest to god truth is most horses do not have an infinite number of jumps in them.
My biggest regret of my riding career and junior career to date was selling another of my bigeq horses to a rider that had him essentially unable to compete anymore. He’s been sitting in a pasture at a relatives house because by age 11 he was unsound. This horse is and was a great guy. Very talented, very, trying, smart, honest, unphased, and never said no or had a bad day. Never stopped at a jump, never missed a lead change, went around regardless of conditions. Also cute as can be. He’s the kind of horse you know had he not spent 27 months in one of these win at all costs programs would likely be like my older eq horse, still willing to teach a kid the ropes. So yes I am very sensitive to the plight of the eq horses.
I have owned 18+ horses and leased 3 more. I know horses spend most of their lives either actively dying or trying to kill themselves. I also think trainers need to push the idea that horses have a finite number of jumps. I know where many of them are or how they ended up.
It would be interesting for the USEF or USHJA to use their databases and figure out how long the average career of a top 50 3’6 junior or eq horse is. I wouldn’t be shocked if horses that were consistently shown week after week for a year or two straight have a much shorter career at any level.
Let’s compare pony hunters to 3’6 horses. There are a lot more ponies going around for 10+ years. It could be due to ponies being hardier, or due to the fact a trainer probably isn’t schooling and showing them every day of the circuit.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7635221]
It’s terrible that things have to get to the point an association has to make such a rule.
7 jumping classes? They wouldn’t make the rule unless people were trying to do more than that.
7 jumping classes is most likely a minimum of 8 jumps. So that’s at least 56 jumps!!!
Ridiculous!!![/QUOTE]
The rule has been around for a long time, though I’m not sure it was always that high (IIRC it used to be 5?). In any event, I remember having to be careful about how many jump rounds I did when I had one horse to do both hunters and eq. I used the rule as a guideline for how much was too much for my horse when trying to select which classes to do. Depending on the scheduling, one day might get close to the max but then another day I’d have only 1 or 2 rounds. I would never max out day after day, and my trainer wouldn’t have allowed it either. On those double duty horses, I generally never touched the USET talent search because of the bigger jumps and more jumps due to the combinations, and also usually skipped the WIHS (maybe did the hunter phase if I could use it as a warm-up). My trainer was very mindful of not overdoing it on jumping classes, but no matter how much I wanted to qualify for whatever finals, it was also my responsibility to watch out for all of my horses, including the double duty horses, the hunter only horses, the equitation horse I eventually leased (who dabbled in the hunters AFTER I was qualified in the medals and didn’t have many eq rounds to do–the junior hunters let me win my entry fees back sometimes), the green project who could go in all 3 rings, as well as any loaner horse any kind person gave me.
As for the eq itself not being a lot of jumping classes…it depends on what you are going for. Do you want to qualify for Maclay, USEF, USET, WIHS? What about your state association medals? Age group equitation? And then those fun “equitation challenge” classes some shows hold. It can add up to well beyond 3. I also haven’t kept up with all the qualifying rules lately, but it seems that some of them have changed to require a little more campaigning than in the past. Also, some rules say after you are qualified or reach X points you have to stop competing in the qualifying classes. Some don’t, so people still use them as practice after qualifying. Or there are extra incentives like going for the USET gold medal.
[QUOTE=michaelwatkins;7632243]
The horse in question didn’t show 7 weeks straight, with travel. A large part of the problem with the article are the huge inaccuracies, and the jabs at the people who were helping Ms. Champ. The horse Ms. Champ rode in the ASPCA was provided to her at no charge by its new owner. That person now undoubtedly regrets loaning what she thought was a nice deserving 16- year old a wonderful horse that the teenager has now denigrated as being " dull" and overused by her last ride on it. I completely agree that overusing horses certainly can and does occur. It didn’t occur in this case. The sour grapes are Ms. Champ’s. When the horse she had been loaned was no longer available for free, this article was the result. And she blames not only the horse’s owner for" allowing" this alleged abuse, but she also not- so-subtly attacks the trainers who helped her. Her reputation is not good, but it is of her own making. And yes, maybe it is her parents’ issue that substantial bills are not paid but surely that didn’t escape her attention. To write an inaccurate article that is a thinly veiled attack on the people who tried to help her, despite her circumstances, is just wrong. Enough said. I know the people involved and think when unfairness occurs you need to speak up.[/QUOTE]
You felt you needed to speak up on a public FORUM?? To what end? This is self-serving and only done in your (child’s) best interest. Obviously you feel safe verbally bashing a her here. I assume because you “know” them, that you know they aren’t members?
Also, be very careful. Would you want your child’s ‘character’ assassinated on here??? Given how you are acting, it could very well happen. Sorry, just couldn’t stand your know-them-personally based rants anymore. Grow up.
As per the record horse did USET and the Medal and Maclay. OC was not qualified for WIHS so someone else rode the horse. What I was trying to say is that this rider has competed at WEF year after year so suddenly an epiphany or was it because the owners asked the parents to pay a lease for the horse? Many times owners let you ride a unknown horse, and if the horse does well and others are interested in leasing it, they might ask the rider if they would like to lease it. You can refuse and thank them for the opportunities offered. Or you can write a letter about how you are not riding anymore because horses are abused, etc. A sudden consciousness.
I am not a trainer nor a BIGEQ rider but it appears to me that ALL equine disciplines have there problems of over use.
When I got my first true schoolmaster at the tender age of 16 people said he is done why would you buy a horse like that. Well, let me tell you, he was an eventer that had stepped down. He spent many years at Prelim and intermediate and was very successful. He had a ton to teach us. He had been every where and was kind… Unfortunately, we lost him in a pasture accident.
Our horse now, another eventer that had stepped down. he is going to 19 next month! He was successful with a pro at intermediate but the lady who had him most of her life spent the majority of her time at training level. He still has a ton to teach us.
These horses were well cared for…
After all my H/J friends rode my horses they fell in love yet they are entering what would be considered their senoir years. They all still think a horse over 14 is at the end of line. Why?
So many horses are considered dispensable… broken get a new one. I have a retired OTTB in the field, and no I do not own a farm, because he got hurt after his racing career. The parents of a few H/J riders told me to put him down he is not worth anything…
As we all learn from our experiences the moment this girl realized what she though was to much she made a decision. How many parents of elite athletes push their kids hard? In any sport…gymnastics, skating just to name a few. So this girl may not have had any choices.
I think the bigger picture is that these kids do not learn horsemanship. They do not take care of their own horses for the most part. Money gets you a groom to do all the dirty work. I would not pass up the time I spend with my horse.
If the junior riders are so good why do the disappear after they are juniors if they are that good? There has to be more then just a few if they got to finals…
Just my 2 cents
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