COTH Article on Eq Horses

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Angelico;7639570]
Well that was a useless and unnecessary remark.

What kind of “role model” hj25’s mother is or isn’t is not for you to decide or judge. He/she didn’t say their mother was the best or the worst, or even good or bad. Hj25 simply shared the reasons they and many other young riders would have not to refuse the ride based on their own opinion on a totally sound horse. Some people consider the people that have them opportunities before withdrawing from Finals without a real reason. Most kids aren’t as stupid and some treat them; they know how the adults around them think and feel, whether or not they say anything.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I disagree, primarily because the reason I was taught to pursue sports, etc., was to learn to think and act in a mature fashion. And part of being mature is being able to recognize when my acts may jeopardize the health and well-being of others - human or animal - and being willing to do what I can to mitigate those risks. If HJ25 or any other rider feels a horse needs a break - even if at finals - but her parent or other sponsor wants her to ride anyway “because of all the money that has been spent”, then that is a pretty sad commentary.

[MIKES_MCS]

So ," Pony Penny "
what do you think this comment of yours suggests in regard to a rider making an Eq horse?

Quote Originally Posted by tuckawayfarm View Post

“Karen Healey might not allow her riders to do it, but it’s been done. If more trainers encouraged their EQ riders to make it more about the challenge of competing over tough courses and not just about winning, it would be done more often”.

" When has it been done in the last 20 or so years"?
Why is that … Is it now impossible to expect a 15 or 16 year old to bring along their own horse? or to even get on a fresh horse anymore without the assistance of drugs, lunging and pro rides ? Is that what it’s come down to ? You make it sound like non of these kids can actually ride. If this is true then what the point of Equitation classes . I can tell you this , when you get down to the “grass roots” level , there are plenty of 12 year olds starting and training their own horses , yes they have some help usually in the form of their weekley lesson and no they aren’t competing in the upper levels , ( If they could afford that they wouldn’t need to go to the track and buy their bargain basement horses), But if they had the money to go to those AAA shows week after week , I can imagine they could pretty much ride any of the well trained EQ horses , not sure if the opposite would be true.

[Release_First]

I think that the answer to all of this is not to make more rules (which people will find a work around) but to change the judging. What about bonus points for a rider that sends a fresh horse forward instead of pulling on its mouth? What about recognizing that a rider is doing an excellent job on a strong horse? What about giving credit to the rider who is riding every stride between jumps and not just whether they are good over the fences. Yes, I would still expect a smooth ride and good form but now it seems that the pleasure horse over fences is the only look that is capable of winning.

Only the judges can change this. I am old enough that I grew up with the automatic release. All of my pictures show an automatic release until my last horse. The judges wanted to see a crest release so there I am showing a crest release. My trainers didn’t teach this. The judges demanded this.

If you want to win, you pay attention to the judging.

[Trixie]

So what percentage of these Semi Pro Junior Eq Riders are on Sale horses ?? and that just makes this whole thing sadder, not only is the Eq division no longer a place to develope a rider it’s main purpose now is to create a Big ticket Eq sale horse for a trainer…

Actually, I don’t think it makes it sadder. Putting a big eq quality kid who can’t afford a bunch of high end horses on a sale horse that you sell for profit later actually benefits both sides.

Don’t worry, there are still plenty of developing riders out there with their huge strings of bazillion dollar horses. And a million others that wish they could.

But it’s the rare few that are talented enough to get on anything and go out and do it, much less win.

[Lix_Tetrax]

All I’m gonna say on this topic is that not everyone wants (or is capable!) to train a greenie up. I sure don’t want to. And I’m not going to feel guilty about that. Not everyone can do it. Please drop the attitude about building them up. Just because you did it/think it’s neat/correct path does not mean it’s for everyone!

[PonyPenny]

[QUOTE=leyla25;7640119]
As per the record horse did USET and the Medal and Maclay. OC was not qualified for WIHS so someone else rode the horse. What I was trying to say is that this rider has competed at WEF year after year so suddenly an epiphany or was it because the owners asked the parents to pay a lease for the horse? Many times owners let you ride a unknown horse, and if the horse does well and others are interested in leasing it, they might ask the rider if they would like to lease it. You can refuse and thank them for the opportunities offered. Or you can write a letter about how you are not riding anymore because horses are abused, etc. A sudden consciousness.[/QUOTE]

I looks like leyla25 understands the origins of the article. I agree with her analogy.

[Andy_Warhol]

Missy Clark and not penalizing the rider for an expressive or animated horse

I just did an interview with trainer Missy Clark and her comments about both the Talent Search and not penalizing the rider for an animated or expressive horse may interest the rider and readers of this thread:
http://horseandstylemag.com/mosiac/usef-talent-search-changes.html

[Prime_Time_Rider]

Rather than attacking the writer of the article (which I have read), I think we need to focus on the legitimate issue that she raises. Are we over showing/over jumping our horses in pursuit of points? Anyone who has competed in the USEF recognized show world with the goal of qualifying for finals, or making it into the top ten ranked horses nationally knows that in order to be successful, you have to show a lot. This certainly doesn’t benefit our horses. The current horse show system in which competitors hunt points benefits the horse show industry to the determent of our horses and prices out talented riders who just can’t afford to show every weekend.

The system for qualifying for Pony Finals is much more sensible in my opinion. In order to qualify, you must be either a champion at an A or AA rated show or champion or reserve champion at an AA show. Win one championship and you qualify. Sure, you have kids showing every weekend pursuing an illusive championship, but let’s face it, if you’re not competitive regionally you’re not going to win at Pony Finals.

As owners and riders we have a responsibility to put the welfare and well being of our horses first. Unfortunately, that doesn’t always happen in this industry. Leasing a horse out for the show season provides even less incentive to consider the horse’s well being first.

[hunterjumper25]

[QUOTE=Lix Tetrax;7640998]
All I’m gonna say on this topic is that not everyone wants (or is capable!) to train a greenie up. I sure don’t want to. And I’m not going to feel guilty about that. Not everyone can do it. Please drop the attitude about building them up. Just because you did it/think it’s neat/correct path does not mean it’s for everyone![/QUOTE]
Well said, well said.

[hunterjumper25]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;7640153]
Sorry, I disagree, primarily because the reason I was taught to pursue sports, etc., was to learn to think and act in a mature fashion. And part of being mature is being able to recognize when my acts may jeopardize the health and well-being of others - human or animal - and being willing to do what I can to mitigate those risks. If HJ25 or any other rider feels a horse needs a break - even if at finals - but her parent or other sponsor wants her to ride anyway “because of all the money that has been spent”, then that is a pretty sad commentary.[/QUOTE]

Hello DownYonder, I just wanted to chime in here…
Ok first of all, not all mothers have the time (or resources) to be fully knowledgeable and/or immersed in the horse world. Not all mothers or parents should be expected to know EVERYTHING about horses and their welfare - of course, a bare minimum is ideal, and all parents should have the welfare of the horse in mind. However, I would like to remind you that often it is the parents bankrolling the operation, and when they have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars for all the shows to lead up to, and then for THE SHOW itself, Kentucky, I don’t think many parents would be okay with hearing that after spending all that money, their kid has elected not to ride because she feels a horse needs a break…
Glad to hear that the reason you were “taught to pursue sports, etc., was to learn to think and act in a mature fashion” :lol:

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=Release First;7640403]
I think that the answer to all of this is not to make more rules (which people will find a work around) but to change the judging. What about bonus points for a rider that sends a fresh horse forward instead of pulling on its mouth? What about recognizing that a rider is doing an excellent job on a strong horse? What about giving credit to the rider who is riding every stride between jumps and not just whether they are good over the fences. Yes, I would still expect a smooth ride and good form but now it seems that the pleasure horse over fences is the only look that is capable of winning.

Only the judges can change this. I am old enough that I grew up with the automatic release. All of my pictures show an automatic release until my last horse. The judges wanted to see a crest release so there I am showing a crest release. My trainers didn’t teach this. The judges demanded this.

If you want to win, you pay attention to the judging.[/QUOTE]
The problem I see here is that, the better a rider is at doing these things, the less you will be able to tell that they are doing them at all.

[Moesha]

[QUOTE=leyla25;7640119]
As per the record horse did USET and the Medal and Maclay. OC was not qualified for WIHS so someone else rode the horse. What I was trying to say is that this rider has competed at WEF year after year so suddenly an epiphany or was it because the owners asked the parents to pay a lease for the horse? Many times owners let you ride a unknown horse, and if the horse does well and others are interested in leasing it, they might ask the rider if they would like to lease it. You can refuse and thank them for the opportunities offered. Or you can write a letter about how you are not riding anymore because horses are abused, etc. A sudden consciousness.[/QUOTE]

This is an excellent and articulate view of the situation…of course people do have changes of heart, of course people change their views and attitudes, especially as they grow up and mature…but the fact remains that when you post something on a public forum, in this case a blog in a national magazine…you have opened up criticisms, discussions etc on your thoughts and motives… Everyone knows how the horse show world can be…25 versions of the same story…but the story is the story…no swaying from the reality of a situation no matter how persuasively or poetically done changes the truth.

I think a better situation would have been something more reflective and combining more gratitude…like Leyla25 said to suddenly have such a drastic change of heart only after the horse and horses were no longer available does cast a revenge type of mentality. Not that it was meant to be or is…but certainly questioning that is not attacking a junior rider…when you says things about people and name them or make is so obvious that everyone knows who you are talking about…you have to face the consequences, and in this case being called out by people.

[MIKES_MCS]

Lix Tetrax, WROTE:
All I’m gonna say on this topic is that not everyone wants (or is capable!) to train a greenie up. I sure don’t want to. And I’m not going to feel guilty about that. Not everyone can do it. Please drop the attitude about building them up. Just because you did it/think it’s neat/correct path does not mean it’s for everyone!

What is the purpose of the Equitation Division ?? If it is not to teach a rider how to ride (and that actually must incorporate training techniques ) what is it for ? If a rider of O.C. caliber who has been riding several years in the upper level Eq divisions isn’t capable of training a green horse ( not starting) then there are big holes in their training , or they have been riding to many been there done that horses where posing and fashion are the main points . We are producing 90% of NOTHING out of the Eq divisions. What’s really scary is some of those Big Eq riders are the future of this sport in so much as they will, and have hung out the trainer shingle. Used to be if you won the Medal finals ect… you probably already were a trainer , now what are they , I know it’s just an activity for kids to have fun at , no need to be proficient or competent at it anymore .

[findeight]

Equitation is a show division. It has no purpose outside that. Now, people may have used it as a training ground but most of the time it’s another class kids can enter. Especially if their horse isn’t fancy enough for Hunters or scopey enough for serious Jumpers.

Dont recall it ever being offered as a place to teach developing riders how to ride and develop young horses or there being an expectation top kids would turn Pro instead of pursue other careers. Some did, most did not.

IIRC, more then a few recent Big Eq Medal Finalists and winners are currently showing in Europe. Perhaps they will hang the shingle out in the future…or not and continue to ride their own.

[tuckawayfarm]

PonyPenny,

The TB, purchased as a four year old from his breeder, who lived and showed from my backyard qualified for all of the Big Eq finals and showed in several. His rider knew going in that she would not make call backs, but was fine with completing the course without major faults and the education for herself and her mount that came along with that accomplishment.

If you’ve been to many finals, you are aware that there are more than a few of even the best trained horses and riders who are not able to turn in a clean, but flawed trip. It’s a unique and high pressure environment that can bring out both the best and worst of many talented horses and riders.

There were many trainers, including some BNTs, along the way who were happy to help make it happen because they felt teaching juniors to be good horsemen is good for the sport. This was before EAP and scholarship classes, so I think there are even more opportunities available today if your desire to learn is greater than your desire to win.

And yes, this was in the last 20 years and FWIW, said TB never had more than a rare gram of bute and Adequan in his system.

[Chef_Jade]

So I FINALLY got my magazine yesterday (we are always late on the west coast) and immediately read the article expecting some contraversial accusatory statement given all the mud slinging about OC on this forum. To my surprise, it mentions no names, except for those people presented in a positive light. For 95% of the COTH readers that doen’t know her or the people/horse invovled there was nothing at all contraversial brought up, except for a girl concerned about the welfare of eq. horses…and how is that even contraversial??? Aren’t we all here because we love horses? I would have been pissed, too, if I was told the horse was going to be rested and then found out it went to yet another show. And having participated in the finals, as a west coast based rider, the toll it takes on the horses is staggering. It isn’t just the classes but the shipping back and forth, the new stables, the middle-of-the night schooling sessions, then add a 3-day trailer ride to and from the east coast then some of these horses ship straight back to a show for a west coast medal final.:no:

For those fixated on the author of the article versus the content, don’t you have anything better to do? Whose to say had she even won the finals she wouldn’t have written the same peice? The only sour grapes are from the people who wish they could ride as well and have as much of an opportunity.

[leyla25]

Chef Jade when you are on a borrowed or sale horse, you are not the one deciding how much rest the horse needs, or how many classes the horse does. I’m sure the owner and trainers want the best for the horse, but they also need to profit from their investment in time and effort. If the horses was leased to a potential buyer that is the owner’s call. Because the rider won with the horse she does not have to call names. Everyone knows. It is not done. And it shows poor taste and spoiled attitude.

[busylady]

leyla25, the author could be a completely spoiled brat who never says please and thank you, throws trash our car windows and stomps on her neighbors flowers; it still wouldn’t make the points she raised in her commentary any less valid. I could care less about what the article says about Ms. Champ, I am much more interested in having a conversation about the actual subject matter and what, if anything, needs to be done to ensure the well-being of the horses. It is clear that some owners and trainers cannot be trusted to make the right decisions. It is also clear that many people do not want a light shined on this issue. Perhaps the hunter/jumper circuit needs to have a rule, similar to the USDF rule, that limits the number of daily competitions per horse.

[IPEsq]

Some h/j associations do have the rule…as previously mentioned in this thread. Don’t know why it couldn’t become a rule in Florida or elsewhere.

For example, SCHJA rule:

"HORSE/PONY WELFARE
Horses/ponies are not allowed to be entered in and
jumped in more than seven (7) jumping classes per
day at a sanctioned horse show. "

[Zuri]

I read the article and this thread several times. I think there is a distinction between PARTNERING with a horse to achieve your goals and USING a horse as a means to an end. If riders and trainers can be mindful of a partnership when pursuing their goal, the horse only stands to benefit. The buck stops with the owner. It is ultimately their responsibility to stay on top of the program their horse is in and to make the welfare of the horse their ultimate goal. JMV