COUNT the DOSES and STRAWS!!!

[Jill_SQF]

I bought two doses of semen from Superior Equine Sires and had it shipped directly to my vet clinic. My mare was bred once but didn’t catch. I told the vet to go ahead, short cycle her and use the second dose. When it was time to breed again, the vet suddenly called me and told me there was only ONE dose in the shipment, not TWO!! By that time the vet had had the semen for 1.5 months.

THE BOTTOM LINE:

The vet clinic (vet, technicians, etc) is [B]absolutely certain[/B] they received only one dose.

Carol Austin is ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN she sent two doses.

[U]I am out $1000.00[/U]

Anyone have any ideas???

[back_in_the_saddle]

How many straws were used on the first breeding?

Some stallions have decreased their straw count. DeNiro for example went from four straws to two. Is it possible they used both doses in one breeding? What does the paperwork say?

[rodawn]

Carol is very honest and trustworthy, as well as organized. I would ask her how many straws are in a dose. It may possibly be that the vet clinic used both doses in the first breeding.

[RanchoAdobe]

Agree with above - Carol is meticulous and I have never known her to not be organized and absolutely honest. Your vet should have had a record when the semen arrived of how many straws they received ?

[Donella]

[QUOTE=RanchoAdobe;7600228]
Agree with above - Carol is meticulous and I have never known her to not be organized and absolutely honest. Your vet should have had a record when the semen arrived of how many straws they received ?[/QUOTE]

I agree. Carol is super.

My guess is your vet thought that two doses was actually one and somehow there was some confusion on the number of straws per dose?

[M]

I had a vet use CONVENTIONAL POST-OVULATION PROTOCOl successfully - 1 straw- 1 cycle - no drugs. It is the prescribed German method used when frozen semen first imported. It does require more palpations.

Seems many/most vets prefer to use PRE-AND-POST OVULATION PROTOCOL -
Not quite so intense with likely fewer palpations during the wee hours.

So as others said, 1. check how many straws in a dose 2. check how many straws your vet used and how may inseminations.

From Superior Equine Sire site

CONVENTIONAL POST-OVULATION PROTOCOL:

Examine mare once daily until a 35 mm follicle is present
Continue to monitor follicle, injection of hCG or GnRH optional
Palpate at six hour intervals
Inseminate within six hours post-ovulation

PRE-AND-POST OVULATION PROTOCOL:

Examine mare once daily until a 35 mm or larger follicle is present
Give hCG or GnRH
24hours post-injection, begin twice daily palpations
Inseminate with ½ dose 24 hours post-injection
Inseminate with ½ dose within six hours post-ovulation
TIMED INSEMINATION PROTOCOL:

Examine mare once daily until a 35 mm pre-ovulatory follicle is present
Administer hCG or GnRH
Inseminate with one dose at 24 hours post-ovulating agent
Inseminate with one dose at 40 hours post ovulating agent

[TrueColours]

FWIW … there are many ways to “skin a cat” …

Mare owners - check with reputable, trustworthy sources exactly HOW MANY straws are supposed to be in a breeding dose for that particular stallion. And when the semen arrives at your place, the vet’s place, whoevers place - check and see that is EXACTLY what you have received

There are SO MANY stories floating around out there (and absolutely, 100% NOT pointing any fingers at Carol in this instance! :no: ) where the agent intentionally short ships straws to retain some for their own use on their own mares, or they state that “the required number of straws was shipped. Did you check the “upper deck” of the shipper? I put them there and your vet must not have noticed them”. I call BS in many cases …

I cant even think of one single instance where a Mare Owner investigated themselves, knew there was supposed to be 4 straws per breeding dose, asked the vet to check for 4 straws, and found only 3 was shipped. or 2 or whatever.

Do your homework before you plunk your money down and make sure you are getting exactly what you paid for.

In this case, it sounds like the vet may well have used both doses on 1 cycle when they weren’t supposed to. It is also very much in the MO’s best financial interests to know EXACTLY what the breeding protocol is for the stallion they select / purchase and they tell the vet exactly what needs to be done ahead of time so there is little / no margin for error. I really believe that the MO’s need to take ownership of this as well and not rely 100% on the vets to know what needs to be done

[Mistysmom]

I agree with what has been said. Many years ago it happened to me… vet put in two doses in one cycle!

[Kerole]

Straws per dose vary considerably, depending on who supplies it, the stallion, the stallion station etc. My vet is absolutely ANAL about checking, asking, and double-checking the number of straws in a dose so he doesn’t have this situation arise!

You’d be surprised how often the clinic receives an odd number of straws or an ‘extra’ one that doesn’t look like the others, and this is from large, reputable European establishments including Celle. It also happens with big Standardbred farms. Human error occurs, you can but do your best after all!

[siegi_b]

There’s no doubt in my mind that the vet screwed this up and is now pointing the finger at Carol in order to save his butt. Ask him how many straws he used for the first insemination, and, if he’s honest about it you will have the answer to your question.

Why would the vet wait until your mare was ready to be rebred before he tells you that he only ever received one dose? Something smells fishy here…

[clint]

My vet, who receives my frozen shipments, always counts in the number of doses/straws per dose when she receives them. This year, because of the change in straws used, she had me contact SES/Carol to confirm the correct number of straws per dose. In this case, she thought Carol might have sent an additional dose in error. I find it comforting to know that doses and straws per dose are calculated in the beginning. I have found Carol to always be incredibly honest and upfront about the semen she ships, so I suspect your vet may have lost count of doses/straws used in the first breeding.

[Zuri]

Can your vet make this right and replace the dose they claim was not in there? The straws were in their possession and IMO, their responsibility. The only other thought I had was that the second straw was missed and not stored properly rendering it useless. You should not be out the money/breeding and the vet needs to make this right.

[stoicfish]

This happens often, too often. Not sure why it does as the record keeping should be simple. When order is sent out, it is listed in detail what the shipment contains. This should be recorded in terms of # vials or straws and the stallion it was from. Any terms that are subjective like doses, should not be used for shipping but should be included in the information. And the receiving vet will only accept the order if everything is there.
If the full order is not there, it will not be signed for by the vet. This includes shipping between vets/clinics. At possibly over 1k per dose, why are people not doing a better job of inventory.
Someone explain to me why this still happens?

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7600814]
This happens often, too often. Not sure why it does as the record keeping should be simple. When order is sent out, it is listed in detail what the shipment contains. This should be recorded in terms of # vials or straws and the stallion it was from. Any terms that are subjective like doses, should not be used for shipping but should be included in the information. And the receiving vet will only accept the order if everything is there.
If the full order is not there, it will not be signed for by the vet. This includes shipping between vets/clinics. At possibly over 1k per dose, why are people not doing a better job of inventory.
Someone explain to me why this still happens?[/QUOTE]

Because chances are it isn’t the vet who is checking in the shipments, but rather someone in his office. And those folks in general aren’t as meticulous as the vet, and don’t understand or care about possible financial/legal/ethical ramifications. In some cases, they don’t check the number of straws against the shipping manifest or other documentation accompanying the shipment. It is also not unknown for straws to get accidentally damaged while being transferred from the dry shipper to the vet’s own tanks, but no one wants to take the blame, so they “trash” the damaged dose and never say a word. There have also been cases where an employee has helped herself to doses. The latter happened to a friend - the vet found out about it by viewing surveillance tapes of his lab, because there had been several instances of missing doses while he had a college kid working as a summer intern (the girl’s boyfriend’s mother was a breeder).

[Kerole]

I highly doubt my vet clinic opens the shipping container and counts the straws/doses right there and then in front of the courier man, before signing for the delivery. Nice thought but an unlikely scenario.

They definitely DO count out the contents of the shipping container when they transfer it into their tank, checking it against the shipping info, and making proper documentation in their own books for future use.

[mareslave]

we’re going through the similar missing dose too. Stallion owner directed her storage facility (university) to ship 4 doses, our vet got 3 & confirmed with stallion owner directly how many straws=dose prior to insemination.

Now storage is giving lower count on the remaining doses (even few left than if 4 had shipped :eek: yikes!).

Since it’s for a custom foal for stallion owner, we have no incentive to pirate SO’s doses & I’d like to keep SO happy. I’m thinking someone at the storage facility really messed up.

[stoicfish]

I don’t think personal or lack of checking is an excuse. If other industries can get this right, there is no reason that vet offices cannot to the same. Honestly, it is just bad business practices. People should demand better.
And for the cost, they should be able to deliver. There is no reason not to check the delivery when it gets there. Besides things missing, what if it is damaged? These orders can be in the thousands.
But I guess if breeders keep accepting these practices, it will not change.
Accountability and chain of custody.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Kerole;7601100]
I highly doubt my vet clinic opens the shipping container and counts the straws/doses right there and then in front of the courier man, before signing for the delivery. Nice thought but an unlikely scenario.

They definitely DO count out the contents of the shipping container when they transfer it into their tank, checking it against the shipping info, and making proper documentation in their own books for future use.[/QUOTE]

The vet that I’ve used for frozen always does any transfers himself; no one else is allowed to do this. The semen broker should include the following info with each shipment: Number of straws per dose, the processing station (the place that collected and froze the stallion) and the year the straws were frozen…and of course the thawing instructions.

The broker was given all this info when they received the semen, so they should be able to give it to the buyer. When the vet transfers the semen to his/her tank he/she should check and see if everything matches up. Check the tank carefully if things don’t.

And if they STILL don’t match up, he/she calls the broker & the Mare Owner.

If all Mare Owners/Semen buyers INSIST to both the broker & their vet that this protocol is followed, “missing doses” issues will drop dramatically.

And if the Broker can’t/won’t supply this info, use another Broker. That’s one reason I’m liking Global Equine Sires: right on the website it lists how many straws in each dose for each stallion & what year it was collected.

If your vet won’t comply, find another vet.

The bottom line is that no one cares as much about YOUR $$ as YOU. So hold folks accountable or take your business else where. If enough people do this, pretty soon it will be the normal practice.

BTW, SBS ALWAYS does 8 straws per dose. ALWAYS. Here or overseas, if the stallion was frozen by SBS, there will be 8 straws per dose.

So at least they are easy to track…

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7601381]
I don’t think personal or lack of checking is an excuse. If other industries can get this right, there is no reason that vet offices cannot to the same. Honestly, it is just bad business practices. People should demand better.
And for the cost, they should be able to deliver. There is no reason not to check the delivery when it gets there. Besides things missing, what if it is damaged? These orders can be in the thousands.
But I guess if breeders keep accepting these practices, it will not change.
Accountability and chain of custody.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree the vet offices should be held accountable. But what does a breeder do if it is the only clinic in the area that does frozen semen breedings? Or is the only one that can be depended on to do the “middle of the night” U/S and inseminations? How does the breeder do? She is dependent on that vet, so can’t pull her business.

But I think it would behoove any breeder looking to select a clinic to use for frozen semen breedings, to verify ahead of time with the vet exactly what their protocol is for receiving shipments. Who checks them in? Are the contents of the shipment verified against the shipping documentation? Who transfers the doses to the vet’s tanks? Is that person properly trained on how to handle frozen semen? Is there a checklist at every step of the process that verifies number of doses/straws and their condition? Is there a requirement that the checklist be signed or initialed by the person handling the doses? Does anyone else monitor or oversee the process, and validate that proper protocol was followed? Does the clinic advise the MO that a certain number of doses/straws from stallion A were received, and the condition (intact and in apparent good condition, or damaged, etc.)?

The above may seem like overkill - esp. to some clinics where the staff is overworked and underpaid - but when you are talking about frozen semen costing THOUSANDS of dollars, it is well worth the hassle.

[TrueColours]

Some really great suggestions here and I do agree - the broker and the vet clinic all have to be accountable every step of the way or the MO is going to find they are spending W-A-Y more money than necessary, and some questionable practices may also arise intentionally or accidentally …

Client of mine that is on the East Coast bought some frozen from an East Coast based broker. From the time she requested it, it took 3 (or maybe 4???) days to arrive and when she got her FedEx bill a few weeks later for the transport, it was a whopping$750.00 for a dry shipper let alone what it cost her to send the dry shipper back again to the broker. She called the broker, who said “Oh - there must be some mistake. Let me check with FedEx and I’ll let you know”. She never heard back from the broker despite repeated calls and emails and in investigating further with FedEx found that the dry shipper went from the East Coast to a client on the West Coast and then back to her. To add insult to injury, instead of the stated 6 straws in a breeding dose, they got 4. The broker insisted that the vet never checked “the upper deck” of the dry shipper where the straws were purported to be (righto … ) so who knows if the West Coast client took 2 extra or if the broker short shipped them from the very beginning so they could be used for their own mares. And the West Coast client was also charged shipping by the broker directly, so the broker “double dipped” on the transport charges and made a hefty profit on this shipment …

Mare Owners REALLY need to know what is “The Norm”, what are acceptable costs, what protocols should be followed, what constitutes a “breeding dose” for that stallion and then insist on accountability right down the line. This shouldn’t be Rocket Science at all but it really seems that when horses are involved and no one wants to upset their vet or their broker, the issues are skirted or pussy footed around and inconsistences and errors are fluffed over and/or grumbled about but no one really nails them to the wall and demands accountability with their financial investment …