[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8660679]
We may never know - due to the tone of some of these posts…[/QUOTE]
OP’s isn’t “man enough” to come back and give an update due to thin skin??? No wonder she did’t knock on the cow’s owner’s door…
But I don’t really think that “all” dressage does this - what if someone starts stating that it’s everywhere, the masses believe it and you find yourself accused of practicing something you never did?
I knew you were speaking hypothetically and framed my response accordingly.
You know that a lot of folks who are familiar with horses but not dressage believe that way of riding is inhumane?! And I am not talking about the Queen of Pepperonies.
And it’s BS that rollkur is a good training tool.
At least not in the hands of most dressage riders.
And most dressage riders have used it in the last 2 decades…
I agree that RK is horrific, so I’m not really following you. But, you are incorrect that most dressage riders have used it. It has been very divisive because so many dressage riders always saw it for the horror it is.
Wait so now it is small farmers who have horrific conditions. I thought it was just those factory farms.
I’ve been pretty clear all along that the only way to know is to research the farm/brand.
Rolkur is popular around the Dutch school of riding but it’s not universal to all (or even most) Dressage riders. >_>
I can’t believe people are still trying to make excuses for CAFOs and the like… I wonder how many people on this forum actually like animals, and not just the ones who are cute and fuzzy.
I can’t believe people are still trying to make excuses for CAFOs and the like… I wonder how many people on this forum actually like animals, and not just the ones who are cute and fuzzy.
Hey… everyone got their panties in a wad when one small farmer named his cow and let everyone see her thriving in good health.
Now people are upset that this hobby farmer may or may not be taking the wait and see approach to production animals.
Same solution though… buy the cow and do the ‘right’ thing, whatever that may be to the OP.
Probably because the see and wait approach without a vet’s recommendation can be considered legal animal cruelty in itself.
Proof that the vet was not consulted?
[QUOTE=amm2cd;8660942]
Proof that the vet was not consulted?[/QUOTE]
The fact that an animal with an injury or illness was denied veterinary care.
Again, there is not proof of that. I think you are confusing “proof” with “assumption”.
The OP is watching (or was) from her house through binoculars, and as established up thread, she saw the cow being fed and offered a bucket of what she assumes is water. Could it have contained meds? Could the owner have administered anything while the OP was asleep, in the bathroom, eating, or otherwise occupied? Since the OP hasn’t (or at least hasn’t disclosed) personally visited to express concern, offer help or communicated with her neighbor in any capacity so to assume the worst based on an anonymous Internet post would be down right silly.
So, in conclusion, you have no proof that any cruelty has occured. Actually, there is no proof that the distressed cow even exists, for that matter.
You don’t need proof for a humane investigator to come. Just a complaint. That’s why the investigator shows up. To investigate stuff.
OP characterized cow as distressed. Since you aren’t there, you have no right to say it isn’t.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8660963]
The fact that an animal with an injury or illness was denied veterinary care.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily.
When discussing a criminal charge you have to look at the statute and see what it says. Then you try and figure out what it means.
If you’re in MI then you’d have to look at the MI statutes to decide what constitutes “animal cruelty.”
Here is the TN statute:
[I]39-14-202 Cruelty to animals.
(a) A person commits an offense who intentionally or knowingly:
(1) Tortures, maims or grossly overworks an animal;
(2) Fails unreasonably to provide necessary food, water, care or shelter for an animal in the person’s custody;
(3) Abandons unreasonably an animal in the person’s custody;
(4) Transports or confines an animal in a cruel manner; or
(5) Inflicts burns, cuts, lacerations, or other injuries or pain, by any method, including blistering compounds, to the legs or hooves of horses in order to make them sore for any purpose including, but not limited to, competition in horse shows and similar events.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the person was engaged in accepted veterinary practices, medical treatment by the owner or with the owner’s consent, or bona fide experimentation for scientific research.
© Whenever any person is taken into custody by any officer for violation of subdivision (a)(4), the officer may take charge of the vehicle or conveyance, and its contents, used by the person to transport the animal. The officer shall deposit these items in a safe place for custody. Any necessary expense incurred for taking charge of and sustaining the same shall be a lien thereon, to be paid before the same can lawfully be recovered; or the expenses, or any part thereof, remaining unpaid may be recovered by the person incurring the same of the owners of the animal in an action therefor.
(d) In addition to the penalty imposed in subsection (f), the court making the sentencing determination for a person convicted under this section shall order the person convicted to surrender custody and forfeit the animal or animals whose treatment was the basis of the conviction. Custody shall be given to a humane society incorporated under the laws of this state. The court may prohibit the person convicted from having custody of other animals for any period of time the court determines to be reasonable, or impose any other reasonable restrictions on the person’s custody of animals as necessary for the protection of the animals.
(e)(1) Nothing in this section shall be construed as prohibiting the owner of a farm animal or someone acting with the consent of the owner of such animal from engaging in usual and customary practices which are accepted by colleges of agriculture or veterinary medicine with respect to such animal.
(2) It is an offense for a person other than a law enforcement officer acting with probable cause to knowingly interfere with the performance of any such agricultural practices permitted by subdivision (e)(1).
(3) An offense under subdivision (e)(2) is a Class B misdemeanor.
(f) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.[/I]
On issue of vet. care, see Sec. (a)(2), (b), and (e)(1). Simply not calling a vet. would not, necessarily, be an offense.
I spent five years as VP and THE Large Animal Committee of our local Humane Society. And I’ve assisted in the prosecution of several. They are not easy cases to win absent truly egregious human conduct. The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any action claimed be “cruelty” under the statute was taken intentionally or knowingly. Being “clueless” can be a defense to the charge.
G.
Most cattle producers have a good working knowledge of cattle health and can doctor most anything. A vet is only called in extreme cases. In the case of this cow, there’s really nothing a vet could do that the farmer couldn’t. Its calving paralysis and the cow will either get better or she wont, only time will tell. Sounds like she’s being given food and water. She’s laying on her brisket and getting up for periods of time. Odds are she’ll recover. Then she’ll most likely go to the sale barn as the odds of her being able to calve again aren’t good. Where I would fault this guy is using a tractor to pull the calf. You should pull manually or use a come along. That way you can work with the cow’s contractions and are less likely to cause injury. As far as the cow being skin and bones, its best to have them on the thin side before calving. Excess fat can cause calving problems.
Which I completely understand, but at the same time, the farmer in this case isn’t a professional. According to the OP, he does this as a hobby. Him with holding a vet is comparable to me using Dr. Google for my pony’s health concerns instead of actually calling upon an animal medical professional to take care of him.
If he had been doing this sort of thing for years, I’d understand that, but in this case (again, according to the OP), he doesn’t. I mean, just because someone owns a cow doesn’t make them an expert.
I don’t think it’s fair to the poor cow, either. Odds are she’ll recover, but if she doesn’t???
I didn’t have any concerns about the cow’s weight, just the lack of vet care.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8661007]
You don’t need proof for a humane investigator to come. Just a complaint. That’s why the investigator shows up. To investigate stuff.
OP characterized cow as distressed. Since you aren’t there, you have no right to say it isn’t.[/QUOTE]
And didn’t it say up thread that law enforcement paid the man a visit? And that the OP didn’t see them walk out to the cow?
It sounds like some investigating has been done and the owners situation was enough for the LEO to conclude his investigation.
As far as rights go on a bulletin board, I’m pretty sure that as long as no forum rules or laws are broken a poster is free to type their opinions, experiences and otherwise share knowledge.
Guilherme has neatly defined what constitutes abuse below. If the situation in the OP fits, LEO will open an inveatigation.
As the situation stands now, the OPs options are to continue to harass law enforcement until they either press charges or tell her that there is nothing wrong or simply buy the cow, bring her to a specialist or put her down.
Spying on your neigh or and posting his problems all over and Internet bulletin board does not help the cow or spread education (since even she doesn’t know the full story because she hasn’t talked to the neighbor about his down cow at all).
Law enforcement is not the same thing as a humane investigator. For one, they don’t specialize in animal cruelty cases. So no, if I was in the OP’s situation, I wouldn’t be settled with that. Cops ignore animal abuse all the time when they don’t feel like bothering with an issue.
It’s not really spying when you can notice the dang animal from right outside your window. I wouldn’t want to have to look at a downed animal every day, and I would be concerned if it lasted longer than a day.
But I’d also probably say something to the neighbor.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8661033]
Law enforcement is not the same thing as a humane investigator. For one, they don’t specialize in animal cruelty cases.[/QUOTE]
I would say it would depend on what planet you live on. Where I came from, LE is who would initiate a potential livestock abuse case. The local humane society would only investigate in the city, not unincorporated county. One needs to be careful when making sweeping statements about how things happen as different states will have different laws and differing opinions and process/procedures regarding livestock abuse.
Initiating is not the same as specializing.
I’ve seen humane cases go down wayyy outside of city limits before.
Anyways, I just don’t think anyone has the right to tell the OP not to be concerned since not one of us is there to see for ourselves. OP herself says she has experience with cattle, so I don’t know why people are disrespecting her by saying otherwise.
It’s a shame, because that’s probably why she hasn’t responded back with news.
I wonder if the cow has chimed in yet?
Does she have a saddle or an open trailer? What about a pony?
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8661033]
Law enforcement is not the same thing as a humane investigator. For one, they don’t specialize in animal cruelty cases. So no, if I was in the OP’s situation, I wouldn’t be settled with that. Cops ignore animal abuse all the time when they don’t feel like bothering with an issue.
It’s not really spying when you can notice the dang animal from right outside your window. I wouldn’t want to have to look at a downed animal every day, and I would be concerned if it lasted longer than a day.
But I’d also probably say something to the neighbor.[/QUOTE]
It really depends on where you live. My town has one animal control officer; and on the weekends they have none. I know for a fact that the AC officer has very limited knowledge of horses; he specializes in stray/loose dogs and feral cats. I have no idea what he would do/know in a case of suspected livestock (cattle) neglect.
My guess is that he might stop in and ask, and call a local livestock vet for advice. If the local vet said “yeah, downed cow…could be paralysis. Usually we watch and wait for a few days” that would be that.
I also agree that I don’t know that the cow is being neglected. It may not recover, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t being treated just because they didn’t haul it off to Cornell. I don’t blame the neighbor for being concerned, but there is a line between concern and just nosy.
I would love to hear an update.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8661033]
Law enforcement is not the same thing as a humane investigator. For one, they don’t specialize in animal cruelty cases. So no, if I was in the OP’s situation, I wouldn’t be settled with that. Cops ignore animal abuse all the time when they don’t feel like bothering with an issue.
It’s not really spying when you can notice the dang animal from right outside your window. I wouldn’t want to have to look at a downed animal every day, and I would be concerned if it lasted longer than a day.
But I’d also probably say something to the neighbor.[/QUOTE]
A “humane investigator” IS a “law enforcement officer.” If one comes to your house you should treat them as you would an LEO. If you permit them to enter and inspect then anything they find can be used against you in a criminal charge. We have Fourth Amendment for a reason. How much authority you have to exclude them is dependent upon your state law.
Leaving an animal down in public view is a bad idea for the reasons you note. It is not necessarily “animal cruelty” either in law or in common parlance.
G.
The OP called who is in charge of those things in their area. They came out, even per the OP. Sorry you do not like that it is the Sheriff and not some humane group.
[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8661007]
OP characterized cow as distressed. Since you aren’t there, you have no right to say it isn’t.[/QUOTE]
I am sure the OP (and you) would have used big scary words to describe my horse too.
I am also sure that the humane representative (if called) would have stopped, discussed, and left.
Which would probably have you and the OP insisting something else should be done.
How would you like someone to move a cow that simply needs some time before it is up and moving on its own?
Are you going to start swearing at us now, Rodeo?
