Fair enough.
Buying a female GSD - will the OP be checking for the poor functioning hind leg deformities of a lot of the GSD show dogs that are still being pinned at top shows?
My dog did not come with a health guarantee - just a promise to return $ if vet found something wrong with her, but - as said - she is perfect, mentally and physically (and spayed).
At the end of the day - we live in a free society and can find our dogs when and wherever we find one that we like.
Not for others to decide if I/we are capable enough.
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'Nuther point - larger breeds have many puppies - prospect of making money is greater with he proliferation of these types of dogs, whether cross bred or not. Tons of ads for these dogs.
Smaller dogs have, say, four puppies. Add in the vet costs, stud costs, etc. and have one sick puppy, there are no percentages in it for that breeder - just love of the babies.
Your opinion of “perfect” is not necessarily everyone’s idea of perfect. Your dog may have dysplasia or another defect that you haven’t identified (yet) or cannot without testing. The point of health testing is not just for the puppies in the litter but for their offspring. A dysplastic dog doesn’t have to be so crippled as to be noticeable, but it is a trait that can be passed on - hence the point of doing xrays before breeding.
That said would the returned price of the puppy be as much as the surgery to fix the hips if they were bad? Not unless you paid more than $5K for the puppy…and even then probably not.
As for GSDs, overangulation is not a deformity. You may not like it, but it’s not by definition, a “poor functioning hind leg deformity,”
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Similar to you my mom was a “backyard breeder”. Over a period of 20 years she had two very nice labs. Both actively hunted and were successful field trialers. She carefully selected studs. Each bitch had two litters. Homes carefully selected, pups health tested, etc.
My current dog is off kijiji. A Bernese x Aussie. I wasn’t in a position to take on a young puppy. But something already spayed and house trained was perfect. We’ve dabbled in obedience, agility, tricks, and now we’ve started competing in skijoring.
I miss having a hunting dog though so my next dog will hopefully be a Blue Picardy Spaniel pup from a “backyard breeder” that recently imported a nice male from France.
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Why would you buy a rare breed from a breeder that doesn’t health test before breeding?
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ok S1969 - we clearly come from opposite ends of the spectrum and as a poster here I have absolutely no way of knowing how authentic your posts are or the depth of your doggy knowledge - so we have to agree to disagree.
Like - Your suggestion that my dog may not be perfect and I say she is. She may or may not make a top show dog but she could be put in a show if that was my interest. She has her CKC Good Neighbour certificate and her tester asked if I’d like to do obedience with her at the shows. We find obedience, agility, hiking, horses, family life enough and she’s got a wonderful temperament … she’s perfect and healthy. “The returned price of my pup” - there’s no guarantee from anyone…but it is academic now.
I think some of us deserve just a little bit of credit. Ha! Good Times - tut tut - another Kijiji purchase, even though it is not to be recommended in all cases.
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Not sure what you mean by “authentic” so for reference, I am an owner of purebred dogs that all have AKC show titles and 2 of current 3 have AKC hunt test titles. My older male is the sire of my younger male - so while I am not the breeder of record, I am certainly involved in breeding. All of them have had a variety of health testing - hips, elbows, patellas, thyroid and eyes. All together, the health testing listed was about $600-700 (maybe less?); it’s not very expensive…thyroid might be the most expensive. My younger dog was one of 12 so his breeder got his money’s worth.
You may have seen the recent post about the Springer with hip dysplasia. https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/off-topic/the-menagerie/10320577-hip-dysplasia-in-the-very-young-dog-experiences
Surgery for that dog will easily cost over $5000. There is NO reason not to test for it before breeding. Your dog may be dysplastic - you don’t know that she is not. Obviously she is not so severely dysplastic to be affected like the puppy in the above thread, but if you tested her you might find that she is. That’s how dogs end up being severely affected. Not excluding affected dogs from the gene pool, assuming they are “good” and breeding them. She may also have cataracts or retinal issues that you would not see with the naked eye; inherited thyroid or heart conditions, etc. There is a reason these are tested for before breeding - if they were obvious you wouldn’t need to test.
Offering a “money back” guarantee on dogs is a cop out. It’s too late. And if you only paid, for example, $600 for the dog. Big deal. That ain’t going to cover two new hips.
I don’t know how you can “disagree” with this concept. It’s simple responsibility on the part of the breeder - and saves heartache and suffering for puppy buyers and dogs. Maybe people think it’s really difficult or expensive to test for? FWIW, hip dysplasia is one xray, mine were sedated for it, sent to OFA. While at the vet you can xray elbows and evaluate patella at the same time. Took about 30 minutes, total cost for all 3 exams was about $300. If the dog is over 2 years old, you never have to do it again.
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Our purebred puppy came from a “backyard breeder” but the parents were health testified and approved by the breed association. The breed association approves all breedings. Then - I’m not sure on the rules - the breeder gets some credit when a certain number of the puppies pass their NA test. Puppies are supposed to only go to hunting families. The breed is Small Munsterlander - a rare breed - but it is getting more popular. I don’t think there is any magic in a large kennel operation versus a backyard breeder. Breedings could be better regulated through standards set by the breed association if you want a registered dog… just a thought.
We love our SM - he is a totally awesome family dog and wickedly good, die hard hunter - in case anyone is interested.
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I can speak only for my breed’s national club but they do have standards they expect of all the breeders that appear in the national club directory. Just setting standards is a lovely idea but again, difficult to enforce unless there are repeated complaints about a specific breeder.
As a buyer, I can read the standards, I can “interview” different breeders in the directory, see if I reach an agreement/comfort level with one that has a litter upcoming or available and do my own research if the parents have been health tested and what tests and results. Hard for the national club to do all that when they would need to rely on the breeder reporting a litter and its parentage.
IMO.
I guess that’s the problem with the more popular breeds. Could AKC/breed clubs only register litters that had health checks? would that be enough of an incentive for those producing purebred puppies.
I totally acknowledge this does nothing about breeders and buyers who don’t worry about registered/purebred…
They could. Sure.
Might be somewhat of a conflict with their stated mission…
The American Kennel Club is dedicated to upholding the integrity of its Registry, promoting the sport of purebred dogs and breeding for type and function. Founded in 1884, the AKC® and its affiliated organizations advocate for the purebred dog as a family companion, advance canine health and well-being, work to protect the rights of all dog owners and promote responsible dog ownership.
Yes, they do state they want to advance canine health but they also want to uphold the integrity of the Registry, promote the sport of purebred dogs and breeding for type and function… many goals (as, IMO, it should be).
Could AKC “monitor” health testing of dogs before they are registered? Yes, they could. Will they? A much different question.
In theory, sure. In practice…not sure how successfully. More work for less revenue. It also requires more involvement by the parent club, who tend to be 100% volunteers.
I’m curious about your breed Association approving all breedings. What does that mean? What is their standard for approval (e.g checiing that dogs are out of registered parents or actually from health tested parents?)
Not sure of the connection with NA tests. NAVHDA is a registry but they don’t require health testing…?
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The breed is not an AKC breed - it’s considered a foundational breed. So if the litter is to be registered with the SM club, the breeding has to be pre-approved. This is my understanding of it - not a member (DH was). If one of the puppies goes up for NA testing, and passes - the owner lets the breeder and the club know and they keep a record.
Moving on … the needle has not shifted.
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Interesting…i looked on the club page. Its hard to know if its mandatory for the club to approve all breedings for registration or if only cooperating breeders are required. I know they are not an AKC club and not very numerous. I’m not sure how AKC could do the same for 192 breeds, most of which are gigantic compared to SMs.
So tradeoffs I suppose. Going with a rare breed has pros and cons for sure.
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Really? Why not? Seriously. Since you are bothering to tell us this, you can’t expect us not to want to know why.
Because I’m not about to be told how to think by an internet user whose opinion may or may not be of value to me.
It’s ridiculous to keep chewing the fat…
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huh? Well, that should be true of most things on the internet. But… well, I like talking dogs and horses, it’s wicked cold out and the kids, dogs and I have cabin fever. Chewing the fat here isn’t as ridiculous as watching another episode of “Pretty Little Liars”. Ugh.
on the bright side, it’s warmed up to -8°F…
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I can see how you misinterpreted my post, my bad. I was using “backyard breeder” in quotes because they aren’t a big kennel and only keep one or two dogs at a time. They do health test and compete with the parents to prove that they are sound and capable hunting dogs.
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