Crappy 4-beat canter: How much can you improve it?

[mvp]

I’ll ask this in DressageWorld, too, (as soon as my asbestos suit gets back from the cleaners).

I’m riding two, grade stock-breed horses who came to me ridden more or less the way folks drive farm trucks, if you know what I mean.

That meant:

No canter transition, other than running into it and maybe getting the lead you wanted.

No bending, just leaning on turns.

Not a canter to much as a rushed, 4-beat gallop.

In the year or so that I’ve ridden them, I have improved them enough that now it makes sense to work on the canter at last. But man, it’s hard on my body.

Before I put any more milage on my back, can you guys tell me how much this kind of canter can be improved?

Once you get a canter you want does it stay “installed” in the horse, more or less? There horses aren’t good athletes, but they are pretty sound. I have seen school horses much more lame who can still deliver a rideable canter, so I’m assuming that they just need to be taught what I want, right?

If you have a nice “how” for this, will you please share it?

[SuckerForHorses]

Are they truly 4-beating or are they just uncomfortable?

[Manni01]

Canter them on trails or in a Big field

[aktill]

Can’t generalize to that, point, sorry, but I can say that it’s possible on some horses.

My Icelandic had a very rushed, on the forehand, running-to-avoid-falling-on-face canter when we first started working on it. My dressage instructor even once made the comment that she thought he’d never have anything but a 4 beat because of his breed. It hasn’t been the case.

There wasn’t anything magical I did, though. It was just lots of calm, patient work. A few hints:

1. if there isn’t swing and “suspension” (using that loosely with some horses) in the trot and softness in the walk, it isn’t going to be there in the canter. Attempting to work the canter rarely improves the canter, because the problem takes seed long before that.
2. beyond establishing an understanding of canter cues, rushing into the canter has little benefit.
   3)If the horse is falling forward right from the depart, there’s little point in continuing. An unbalanced, unschooled horse has little chance of correcting their balance in canter.
3. A good canter depart is built from the halt or walk. You’ll likewise never get a good long trot or extended trot if the horse has the option of limping into an unbalanced canter from a strung out trot.
4. don’t attempt to alter the headset of the horse if he doesn’t have a good canter. Let him be responsible for his own balance. Don’t give him the reins to lean on.
5. Lots of walk.

My horse has gone from dreading canter to using it to avoid doing almost anything else He has a lovely canter now. It’s taken a few years to get there, but what’s the rush eh?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;7288845]
Are they truly 4-beating or are they just uncomfortable?[/QUOTE]

Yes, stiff-legged, head up (and the upside-down necks to prove that it’s a long-standing thing), 4-beat, no suspension (none), forehand thing.

Heinous. An abomination of the best gait God put into horses.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Manni01;7288852]
Canter them on trails or in a Big field[/QUOTE]

Yup. After a diagnostic run in an arena, I only bothered to canter outside where we had enough open space to get some forward. I’ll still accept too forward so long as they let me shape them a bit. Oh, but don’t for get the “get soft and then fall back into the trot” move. It’s just so hard on the body.

[Pocket_Pony]

I’ve worked hard to improve Mac’s canter. When I got him his canter was horrible - either lateral, bunny-hoppy in back, and/or fast, unbalanced, just bad. We couldn’t even canter in a circle, it was really just bad. Here’s what I’ve found worked for me (and he’s since scored 8s on some canter movements in regular dressage). This is from a dressage POV, not western, so there’s more “contact” than you may or may not be used to. Take it for what it’s worth.

• The canter won’t be fixed in the canter. Proper work at the trot will improve the canter. When I say proper work, I mean horse is traveling straight, equally balanced side-to-side, pushing from behind, carrying himself, articulating his joints, lifting from the base of the withers. I spent MONTHS at the walk and trot and still do most of my work there. Improving the trot will improve the canter.

• Exercises to help horse articulate his joints and promote self-carriage are lots of transitions, cavaletti exercises, hill work.

• I’m not big into lunging a lot, but I did do some work on the lunge in a round pen, teaching the canter depart from a voice command. The transition came from a good trot, not rushing or racing into it.

• Work on some basic lateral work like shoulder fore or leg yield so that you can position the horse’s body where you want it.

• Canter out on the trail uphill so the horse really has to push from behind and you have a lot of time so you don’t have to “fix” balance before going around a corner.

• Like Adam said, try some transitions to canter from the walk - it is too easy to trottrottrot faster and faster and get a crappy transition that hasn’t really taught the horse anything and you’re getting unbalanced, too. It is ok in the beginning of a horse’s schooling so that they can learn the aid system, but at some point it becomes counter-productive.

I love Mac’s canter now. I think he enjoys it as well. He’ll never have the loft that other horses have, but what he has is good for him and it is comfortable to sit.

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7289085]
I’ve worked hard to improve Mac’s canter. When I got him his canter was horrible - either lateral, bunny-hoppy in back, and/or fast, unbalanced, just bad. We couldn’t even canter in a circle, it was really just bad. Here’s what I’ve found worked for me (and he’s since scored 8s on some canter movements in regular dressage). This is from a dressage POV, not western, so there’s more “contact” than you may or may not be used to. Take it for what it’s worth.

• The canter won’t be fixed in the canter. Proper work at the trot will improve the canter. When I say proper work, I mean horse is traveling straight, equally balanced side-to-side, pushing from behind, carrying himself, articulating his joints, lifting from the base of the withers. I spent MONTHS at the walk and trot and still do most of my work there. Improving the trot will improve the canter.

• Exercises to help horse articulate his joints and promote self-carriage are lots of transitions, cavaletti exercises, hill work.

• I’m not big into lunging a lot, but I did do some work on the lunge in a round pen, teaching the canter depart from a voice command. The transition came from a good trot, not rushing or racing into it.

• Work on some basic lateral work like shoulder fore or leg yield so that you can position the horse’s body where you want it.

• Canter out on the trail uphill so the horse really has to push from behind and you have a lot of time so you don’t have to “fix” balance before going around a corner.

• Like Adam said, try some transitions to canter from the walk - it is too easy to trottrottrot faster and faster and get a crappy transition that hasn’t really taught the horse anything and you’re getting unbalanced, too. It is ok in the beginning of a horse’s schooling so that they can learn the aid system, but at some point it becomes counter-productive.

I love Mac’s canter now. I think he enjoys it as well. He’ll never have the loft that other horses have, but what he has is good for him and it is comfortable to sit.[/QUOTE]

All of the suggestions above. Also, canter/halt/back/canter transitions help get them under themselves. Go a few strides, halt/back/canter off again. It doesn’t need to be pretty, just get the transitions down. The more you do it and the stronger they get, the prettier it will become and the longer they will be able to go balanced after pushing them into the canter.

[monstrpony]

Well, the guy I’m riding now had a trot like a jackhammer when I got him, and his canter was basically … a buck. He was so messed up, mentally and physically, that cantering was pretty much out of the question, unless you held him together, upside down, with a shanked snaffle bit.

He’s finally starting to have a pretty decent trot, for a grade type horse, and his canter is now delightful. Still lots of work to be done, and you don’t want to know how long it’s taken.

It’s strength and balance. Strength and balance. Takes time to peel that onion and rebuild it correctly. But you can improve it a good bit. Certainly it can be better than the basic “farm truck” type thing. It’s okay to leave the canter for a bit and work on balance and strength in the trot, which is, theoretically, easier to do. Then, when there is some confidence and comfort in the balance in the trot (which comes from strength), start revisiting the canter. With mine, instead of pushing him till he lost his balance and got frantic, I started with just a transition and a few strides, and let him fall out of it when he needs to; rebalance the trot, ask again, few strides, back to trot. And lots of strokes.

Agree with what PP says above, including developing the canter transition on the ground. I’d find myself focusing on watching his transition (I do use a lunge, TEHO), and then found there was a body motion that he recognized when I was on his back that made a civilized transition happen.

[Fillabeana]

Strength and balance, you MUST have.

But more important, is the giant brace in the neck, the ribs and the loin that your description positively screams:

stiff-legged, head up (and the upside-down necks to prove that it’s a long-standing thing), 4-beat, no suspension (none), forehand thing.

You’re going to have to figure out how to get the horse(s) to turn loose of these braces. I can almost tell the horses balance when they canter is not just on the forehand, but over the inside front leg as well (classic ‘dropped shoulder’ feeling).

So…lots of lateral bend at the poll on a very tiny scale: ask for the eye, making sure the ears stay plumb and the horse turns loose from the rein, not just swings it’s head sideways, or not pulling the rein sideways, not staying on a contact but releasing when the horse gives.
Ask for the HQ to give laterally. This is difficult to get right. Just about anyone can get a horse to ‘disengage’ but it takes some chops to get a horse to untrack behind, keep his walk rhythm, unweight his inside legs (and therefore weight his outside legs), and turn loose in his hips and ribcage. The purpose of ‘untracking’ is not to disengage the horse, but rather to engage him, to lighten that inside front leg and take weight on the outside hind (your canter strike-off leg), to get him to fill your outside rein so you can ‘power up’ forward into a balanced canter.

(Of course, you don’t untrack the HQ only for a canter transition. Rather, the lateral rebalancing gets the horse into your outside rein, it can set him up, engage him so you CAN go right to canter, or go to a lively rollback over the haunches or any other athletic move you need.)

I suspect this won’t get very ‘right’ until you can get the HQ thing just right, and there are soooo many ways that horses fool you into thinking it’s right when it is still braced up physically and mentally, fleeing pressure rather than rebalancing and operating on a feel. Having the inside rear leg cross over the outside, behind…well, you do need that but even if it’s happening, it can still be done without the horse releasing his brace.
That’s where I’d focus, and you’re probably going to need some excellent help to get it working right. (Your local mentor maybe, definitely mine on the other side of the hill- who will drive his car over the pass so you don’t have to trailer horses two hours one way).
But once you DO know how to get it working (it can take a while!), you’re gonna have some CHOPS, honey.

Once the untracking is good, bring on the lateral work- leg yield, shoulder in, expanding circles.
And I’d continue to hand-gallop outside given the opportunity.

And then, you will be able to develop the strength these downhill stock types need to lift their forehands and canter beautifully. They can.

But the part where your back is getting pounded…you’re asking the horses to ‘go anyway’ while there’s a big giant brace in them. It isn’t any more pleasant for the horse than for you, I don’t think!

[re-runs]

You said stock type so I am thinking Qh or crosses. There was a time when they were breeding Qh with downhill conformation and some horses still carry this with them. Also, there are lines with very straight stifles and hocks, which also pitch the horses on their forehand. If these horses are built like this, your challenge just got harder, but that doesnt mean they cant be helped. It is amazing how horses, once shown how, can compensate for a conformation flaw but it takes a clever rider.

I would start them out just like any other horse that I was re-habbing. Whenever there are problems, go back go back go back to the basics, and that means all the way to leading via proper groundwork. They sound like some of the horses I have gotten off the track; they plow rein, lean on the bit and…run flat on the forehand because that is how they have learned to go. If you dont help them to soften their defenses and you ask for a slow canter, sometimes they hide behind the bit and 4 beat because there is no circle of energy, no throughness. They dont know how to function under a rider asking for any degree of collection. It isn`t your fault of course, it is the succession of riders before you that left their signature on the horses, just like you will leave your signature and hopefully yours will be postitive.

I agree with Aktill that the best way to improve the canter is not by cantering and I will add in my own words…it`s about everything that comes before.

He has given you some very good advice and comes from a place where he could site a personal example. I will add what worked for me is the little exercise of asking for a long walk, then shortening the walk, then long walk again, then SLOWing the walk until the horse is right there with you… step… by… step, listening to your body energy and there isn`t much need for reins. The worst thing you want to do is trigger a brace by hauling on the reins, because you already know these horses carry a brace and have most likely lived that way for a long time.

Coming from a dressage backround, I would someday add a little shoulder-in by first introducing some shoulder-fore. The more supple and loose your horse becomes and not afraid to reach under with his hindleg and carry his own weight and yours (the use of the shoulder in) the less on the forehand he will travel and will become more uphill; which is the amount of self carriage and collection needed to PROPERLY slow his canter down with some engagement, instead of shuffling along and 4 beating on the forehand.

When and only when you have these basics in place and feel the horse is practicing some self carriage is it wise to take them out in the field and give them a good gallop. I personally don`t relish the feeling of having to say Hail Marys trying to stop a braced horse out in the open.

Added, I just read Fillabeana`s post and I agree 100%

[Fillabeana]

It’s taken a few years to get there, but what’s the rush eh?

Great post, Aktill.

Your last comment brings up a relevant point, though…mvp is getting paid to ride these horses. (Unless I’m wrong? I think that’s the case.)

So, while it takes as long as it takes, and ‘rushing’ will generally make it take longer…it does need to take an acceptable (to the owner paying) amount of time. Within reason.
My thoughts on this are that
1)The more chops you have, the less time it will take
2)The less natural ability the horse has for the task, the longer it will take. I have two with natural lead changes, gorgeous canters. And two with naturally ‘awful’ canters.
3)The owner needs to understand that it takes more time, and therefore money, to put a great canter on a horse that has two left feet (or leads?), if you will. And be willing to spend more training time/$$, or get a different horse.

[Fillabeana]

Oh, yes, and I agree with re-runs here to a point: if a horse has downhill conformation and little natural ability, you can improve him a LOT.

Unless said horse already has arthritic sore hocks, stifles, SI, etc that would be common in a horse that is cantered along ‘crappily’ in 4-beat, on the forehand canter (in a tie-down typically), for a significant amount of time. In which case, no dice if the chassis is broken beyond repair.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7289377]
Great post, Aktill.

Your last comment brings up a relevant point, though…mvp is getting paid to ride these horses. (Unless I’m wrong? I think that’s the case.)

So, while it takes as long as it takes, and ‘rushing’ will generally make it take longer…it does need to take an acceptable (to the owner paying) amount of time. Within reason.[/QUOTE]

Definitely a consideration. I had presumed personal horses with my answer.

I don’t train for others (for pay), so have never needed to consider that. What each person is willing to accept is really a personal decision. The answer will fall somewhere between the “30 Day Wonder” trainer and the fellow I learn from who eventually stopped taking in training horses because he didn’t want to leave the foundation holes which doing things even over 3 months inevitably did (he now only trains riders).

[re-runs]

And after you get the horses going good, you have to educate the rider/owner and hope that everything you put in that horse stays and the owner doesn`t foul it up again. Old habits return at the slightest reminder, and that stands true for both horses and people. Horses are usually the easiest ones to deal with. :yes:

[ccoronios]

[QUOTE=mvp;7288760]

I’m riding two, grade stock-breed horses who came to me ridden more or less the way folks drive farm trucks, if you know what I mean.

Not a canter to much as a rushed, 4-beat gallop.[/QUOTE]

First - what a picturesque description! LOVE it!

Second, a gallop IS a 4-beat gait. Supposed to be. And really not sit-able/comfortable, which is one reason why jockeys get up off the horse’s back.

I’m thinking you mean just a gawdawful unbalanced shuffle/scramble in something other than a trot. In which case, my suspicion is that horse probably isn’t all that balanced and round at a walk or trot, either. So the answer is go back to basic basics. Then, after you have those installed, make sure you ask for a canter in a place where the easiest thing for horse to do is canter, picking up the correct lead. Work on voice commands on the longe and use them when riding. When you get to that point (when he’s fit and ready to canter), use definite leg/weight aids AND voice.

[katarine]

Carrot stretches.
All the supplying and strengthening work noted above.minus the canter walk canter work.I think you are long way from them having the carrying strength for that.

[Ambitious_Kate]

Canter rails. Like cavaletti, only set up for canter. You can begin to elevated them alittle, and the horse has to learn to pick up his feet.

Also the suggestion to gallop in fields is a a good idea, as is transitions, canter/walk canter, but that isn’t going to be much good until the horse learns to pick up his feet, and pick up his head as well. A horse using his front end correctlyisn’t going to be able to shuffle.

Trot rails raised up a few inches. He should be picking his feet up all around

[uphill]

I sure have been lucky with good horses with natural ability…of course most have not been QH downhill types. I haven’t always had good push from behind due to conformation of the flat crouped Arabians…but never dreadfully uncomfortable 4 beat. canters.

When I first read your post I was thinking does she mean improving the 4 beat canter or improving the canter and making it 3 beat!! I have seen way too many 4 beat canters in WP classes!! In the good ole days that was not permitted per AHSA rules( showing Arabians) but since they get pinned either the rule is changed or the judges aren’t judging it. I do see it more often in QH shows.

I love the sharing of information on COTH!!

[Beverley]

Much of what I would have said has already been said! But I will add- or maybe reiterate- a whole lot of walk and trot work improves the canter more in my experience than trying to get these done at the canter. The horse is in a well established rut- and it’s hard to fault them for what they’ve gotten in the habit of doing. Lots of serpentines, circles, flexing/collection at the walk, lots of stepping over 18" rails at the walk, lots of halt/back/move forward at walk and trot and canter, lots of trotting over cavaletti. Backing strengthens stifles, slow sitting trot helps muscle up the abs, lots of shortening and lengthening strides at walk and trot set you up for success at the canter. Which is not to say don’t also continue to work at the canter- but remove the crutches- outside the arena work is great, inside the arena, minimize use of the rail, make them go randomly hither and yon, good balanced circles, random counter canters, and when they start to show improvement, reward that and quit before their habituation or lack of proper muscle tone lead them to get off balance or strung out again. When they have to ‘think’ at the canter about where it is they’ll be directed to go, instead of mindlessly clomping along on the rail, they can’t help but make an effort to get more balanced to prepare for the unknown.