dogs are NOT denning animals- they only “den” as young puppies. Keeping your dog for many hours a day in a very tiny cage, which is what a crate is, is cruel. All dogs should be crate-trained, yes, and then let out of them as soon as possible. Even young puppies being trained how to behave in the house should never be caged for more than 4 hours without a break. I think it’s utterly cruel to routinely cage your dog all day every day just because you can’t figure out how to train it behave in the house, or don’t exercise it enough so it can behave in the house. A tired dog is a good dog.
Not only are there mental consequences, there are physical consequences to keeping a dog in such tight confinement. Puppies who are crated all day and all night have a much higher incidence of orthopedic abnormalities like hip and elbow dysplasia upon maturity.
Crates are TINY. Most dogs cannot stand normally or move much at all in a crate. Their bodies deteriorate if they are crated for long periods of time. It’s even worse than stalling a horse 24/7- at least a stall is big enough that the horse can stand normally.
If you’re housetraining a puppy and can’t make it home at lunchtime, a much better alternative is a puppy-proofed room or an x-pen so the pup can move around.
I think it should be illegal to crate a healthy dog more than 4 hours per day without a break (exceptions for dogs who need to be crated post-surgery etc.). If you tried to keep a lab animal in a crate the way many clueless dog owners do, you’d get your lab shut down for inhumane treatment of animals.
Just wanted to add…when I was teaching behavior at the NC Vet School, we used to recommend crating for no more than four hours at at stretch during the day, without someone coming to let the dog out to stretch, drink, eliminate, etc. I know some people can’t do this and their dogs cope.
[QUOTE=S1969;7177343]
My issue with an “indoor kennel” is that the dogs would use it as an indoor bathroom. Some might not, but that is the primary difference between a kennel and a crate – a crate is not supposed to be big enough where a dog is comfortable going to the bathroom in the space; a kennel is large enough.[/QUOTE]
I “kennel” my dogs together in a large x-pen…it’s probably about 9’ diameter?
They have NEVER willingly gone potty in there. We’ve had a few accidents with illness, but that’s it.
Just because you leave a dog in a kennel doesn’t mean they potty in there, at least not inside. Not if your dogs are housebroken. It’s just a space in an indoor room–why would that be any different than regular loose in the house time? The dog doesn’t look at the walls of the x-pen and think “wow, those are bars, I can pee in here.”
All my dogs are crate trained. And until earlier this year, all of my dogs were in crates when I was gone (work or otherwise). When they were puppies, we (either hubby or I) would go home at lunch to let them out. My dogs were show dogs (Border Collies) so very accustomed to crates (traveling in the car, in hotel rooms, at dog shows, etc). I also bought larger crates than they needed with the inside panel so I could keep it small enough that they could move around but not mess in the crate. As they got bigger, I would move the panel back and then eventually take it all the way out when they were house trained. Once the dogs are house trained, they were allowed in the bedroom at night (we put a baby gate up so they stay in there with us). When they were pups, I had a separate crate set up in the bedroom to put them in so they would still be with all of us.
Most of my dogs lived their entire lives with being in a crate when we were gone (9-10 hours during the week and a few hours here and there on weekends). They were healthy and happy.
I just started earlier this year leaving my last Border Collie I have left and my spaniel mix out while we are gone. Of course, I did it slowly and gradually. They are fine but I do shut most of the doors (except their room where their crates are so they go in if they want). Haven’t had any issues with it. Honestly, I don’t think they care either way. 
[QUOTE=wendy;7177888]
Crates are TINY. Most dogs cannot stand normally or move much at all in a crate. [/QUOTE]
I am sorry that you have not been told this but crates come in lots of various sizes. They are not all tiny, heck most of them are not tiny.
A properly sized crate is large enough that a dog can stand normally and stretch out.
The crate my greyhound uses I can easily climb in. There is plenty of room above her head when she is standing up all the way and more than enough room for her to lay flat on her side with all that mile long greyhound leg sticking out straight. Certainly not tiny.
There are many breeds of dogs, and individual dogs, who I would certainly crate, who might be destructive or inappropriate when loose, of course they can be happy and healthy if acclimated to such confinement. And rescues, etc., may have that lifestyle as their only option, I have no problem with that, though I would think it more desirable for the dogs to have a mid-day break if they were crated for a nine or ten hour stretch during the day, if possible.
I know I am blessed to have the facilities and the dogs who make such confinement unnecessary.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;7177987]
I am sorry that you have not been told this but crates come in lots of various sizes. They are not all tiny, heck most of them are not tiny.
A properly sized crate is large enough that a dog can stand normally and stretch out.
The crate my greyhound uses I can easily climb in. There is plenty of room above her head when she is standing up all the way and more than enough room for her to lay flat on her side with all that mile long greyhound leg sticking out straight. Certainly not tiny.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. When I worked FT and my dog was crated, he had a very large crate for his 40lb body. More than large enough to stand in, and he could nearly stretch out fully on the short side, so he could lie flat, curl up, stretch, etc.
Is it ideal? No, but it’s not terrible. Eventually he became trustworthy enough that he could graduate to a downstairs room and the new puppy got the crate for a while, then they both “graduated” to the room.
My current destructive bitch is a recent acquisition - she is 7 and spent most of her life living in a kennel (a very nice kennel, but a kennel…so she is not as house broken as my dogs, in a variety of ways.) I am positive she was the one that “de-stuffed” my pillow the other day…although I suspect that my younger dog joined in the fun once it started…
For everyone who states they don’t think a dog should ever be crated for more than 4hrs, I just pose a question…how do you not see any exceptions to the rule?
As I previously stated, one of my dogs is anxious and impulsive/aggressive around strangers, ruling out a dog walker, and can bicker with one of my females, therefore crating is his safest option (we crate her, too, to rule out if one of them was out and the other somehow escaped). He honestly doesn’t seem to care at all. This dog is also supremely destructive (most likely d/t anxiety), we have tried gating him off in the kitchen on multiple occasions, and after 2 chairs and an entire kitchen floor we gave up and just crated him. In his crate he is peaceful, sleeps, and doesn’t endanger himself (we have web cam’d the dogs for periods of time). This dog is a mix of 2 very high energy breeds, but he gets more exercise than he can handle most days.
I would never look into boarding him/doggie day care because that would cause him so much anxiety. I truly believe he is more comfortable in his own home, in his crate, in a large, well-lit family room with his sisters in sight.
Also wondering if those who believe you shouldn’t crate for more than 4hrs have any sort of social life not involving your dog. I have friends/family stay when we are gone overnight, but I simply cannot justify having someone here for me to go out from 6p-1am. The dogs do just fine.
Do those in the line of thought seriously believe that my dogs would all be better off dead and their lives are so miserable because occasionally they are crated for 6-10/hrs? My dogs are happy, healthy and loved, but that doesn’t mean I need to build my life around them - I work them into my life. I also would like to note, 2 of my dogs were facing imminent euthanasia when we adopted them (one in a shelter for 5 months going kennel crazy and the other dropped off at the vet with a major health issue to be euthanized by former “owner” when we stepped up at the last minute).
I think people certainly do see exceptions to the rule; the point many are trying to make is that if you have an exception, fine, but there are many many many many dogs who pretty much live in crates and would be fine with a little more training/exercise/attention - as someone said, caging has become so normal for so many people that it doesn’t even occur to them to do it any other way.
Nobody’s saying leave your destructive nightmare of a rescue dog to wreak havoc in your house. We’re saying take a good hard look at caging your pets - maybe it’s not quite as necessary as you think.
And for all those saying “crates come in various sizes,” yeah, right, good for you that you have a small enough dog or have indeed purchased an enormous crate with plenty of room. Frankly, most people don’t do that. A big dog cannot stand head up in most crates, nor can they lie flat on their sides with their legs out - most people just don’t give up that much room to the dog crate. Maybe people on this board are a little more animal-savvy that most, but I see a lot of dogs in crates that are marketed for their breed of dog but are really small.
Heck, I’ve even known of a woman who kept her 2 dalmatians in 1 crate while she was at work. I know this because one day her car broke down and a co-worker gave her a ride home and was invited into her house. There were these 2 dogs crammed into one crate that really was barely large enough for one of them. He was disgusted. When he asked about it he was told, oh, they’re fine, they don’t mind at all. They go right in every morning as soon as I tell them to.
Well said, Anne FS.
Paula
I think most dogs are happier when they can make decisions for themselves and can move about a bit, especially if with compatable others. Of course, this presupposes a safe environment and dogs that tend to make good decisions.
I sense, in this thread, that many have dogs who do not make good decisions for themselves, or for those they live with. I believe if you have to use a crate, please do so if you cannot figure out any other way that might give your dog a little more room while keeping him safe.
I am getting the feeling that those who use crates feel guilty, or defensive. I hope that I have not contributed to that feeling, as that is the last thing I would want.
I do think those that use crates, need to think about their rationale (it isn’t that dogs are “den animals”), and might want to think about the size of the enclosure and the length of time they leave their dog in it.
Oh yes, I meant to say, those who think crates are “cruel”…seriously?!
I wonder if we all exchanged dogs, how we would would feel…then exchanged physical facilities and work schedules!
I bet my “angelic” hounds would get crated, or get a one-way ticket to the animal shelter, and I would be furiously seeking eBay crates for all the dogs on this thread (that I could stand to live with)!
But maybe some could fit in here with our lifestyle, I just don’t know!
[QUOTE=Houndhill;7178245]
I wonder if we all exchanged dogs, how we would would feel…then exchanged physical facilities and work schedules![/QUOTE]
I agree. There certainly are those people who abuse the “crate” thing, and then there are people who work their butts off to provide the best they can for their dogs.
When dh & I both worked FT, we staggered our departure and our arrival home. Both of us worked close to home for most of the dog years. We had a pet sitter come mid-day for our dog until he was probably a year old. He had a big crate, got two long off-leash runs morning and night, had liberty of the house except while we were gone, slept in our beds…
If people think that’s an abusive situation…they’ve really never seen abuse.
In contrast, I have a 7 year old bitch now that was kenneled in a very spacious kennel when the owners were working; had free run of a very spacious, well-equipped dog yard when they were home; slept in indoor kennels overnight in a room with the other dogs. So she wasn’t “crated” but she got very little personal attention from her humans; and actually went through a couple of homes before we got her (long story, and they were all good homes, but not really “pet” homes). She’s very needy and a little nervous around people…although making huge strides.
So - she wasn’t crated for 8-10 hours at a stretch…but I would argue that my crated dogs lived a much happier life.
I have a GSP that is crated from 7:45am-4:45pm. No accidents and when I walk through the door she is always sleeping, she seems comfortable. She has plenty of blankets in there and always has a bone and/or toy in there to keep her occupied. Of course, when I get home I allow for PLENTY of play time outside…she could run for hours. A lot of times I will be in the house and will find her laying in her crate when she doesn’t have to. I think she thinks of it as her space, a place she can go when she doesn’t want to be bothered. Do I think crating her for 9 hours is fair? No, not really…but it wouldn’t be fair for her either if she were to tear up my leather couch and then get in trouble for it when I get home…she doesn’t know any better.
I’ve never crated any of my dogs. The only damage ever done was the un-stuffing of a couple of couch pillows when I stupidly forgot to gate the 8-month old retriever beast in the TV room. I don’t see why a well-trained, adult dog would or should be destructive if left alone in a house. They can look out the windows and bark at the squirrels, or play with a toy, or sleep on the bed. How is that not better than staring at the inside of a 4 x 3 plastic box all day long?
[QUOTE=Guin;7178414]
I’ve never crated any of my dogs. The only damage ever done was the un-stuffing of a couple of couch pillows when I stupidly forgot to gate the 8-month old retriever beast in the TV room. I don’t see why a well-trained, adult dog would or should be destructive if left alone in a house. They can look out the windows and bark at the squirrels, or play with a toy, or sleep on the bed. How is that not better than staring at the inside of a 4 x 3 plastic box all day long?[/QUOTE]
If everyone had a well-trained, adult dog that wouldn’t be destructive, nor relieve themselves in the house…most people wouldn’t use a crate!
You are lucky you’ve had such good luck. We have also had good luck with dogs we have obtained as puppies. My most recent acquisition is an eye-opener – despite the same schedule, she is not reliable. She is improving, but no where near reliable from a housetraining or “non-destructive” perspective.
If I have to “resort” to crating her while I am gone, I will take comfort in knowing that it is certainly not the worst thing that could happen to her – she won’t be rehomed because she is not housetrained (at 7), or because she ripped up my brand new memory foam bed topper…nor will she need surgery because she ate the stuffing from a pillow, or a dirty sock or dog toy.
I suspect that many dog owners don’t obtain perfect pets, nor do they all have the ability to perfectly train them. So, we choose the lesser of evils. Which isn’t all that horrible, if done well.
[QUOTE=spotted draft x filly;7177230]
Nobody here said they never let their dog run loose in the house.[/QUOTE]
Which is why I said it wasn’t a slam on anyone here…
Well, I guess I’m cruel to my dogs. I’ll go tell them that…
My dogs are crated from about 8:30am to 5:30pm, because I work to support their needs. The youngest dog is also crated overnight because he’s bad. They get a short time outside in the morning. Depending on what time I get up, that’s anywhere from 15 minutes to 30 minutes. I usually try to go throw the ball around a bit with them, and the youngest will go to the barn with me to feed horses. The 3 year old is banished from the barn for chasing geese, and the old boxer doesn’t need that kind of run time, he wouldn’t be able to walk later.
About 8:30 every morning, adolescent cattle dog goes in crate, old boxer gets confined to the bedroom, and 3 year old cattle dog is confined in the study. We used to allow the two older dogs run of the bedroom and study area until the younger dogs started jumping the old dog, now they are separated. We get home about 5:30, dogs go out to potty, then come in while I cook dinner. After dinner, we either go for a walk, go out and play ball, have some obedience training, or various other activities. They then hang out with us until bedtime. Young cattle dog is in the crate at night because he resource guards and won’t let my husband in the room. Therefore, he goes in the crate. Other dogs are allowed to sleep on the bed. Oh, and cattle dog has NOTHING in his crate except a light blanket because if he has anything he can guard, we can’t get him out of his crate. He just has to be bored in there, sorry.
That’s a day in our dogs lives. I know they are up a long time, but they don’t have a choice. If I didn’t have the youngest cattle dog, he’d have been euthanized for behavioral problems. If I hadn’t rescued the older cattle dog, she’d have been euthanized in a shelter because she was essentially feral when I got her. If I didn’t have the old boxer, he’d have been in some jerks back yard, neglected. Instead they are well fed, trained, loved, and have soft, squishy places to sleep.
I crate my dog for her safety. The few times I have not have ended in ER vet visits. Her crate is big enough that she can stand up, turn around, etc. When we’re getting ready to leave in the morning she grabs her toy and runs straight to her crate. I do come home and let her out at least once a day. When the kids are out of school she spends very little time in her crate. If something causes her stress(like the vacuum), she runs straight to her crate to chill out. She’s never given me any reason to believe she hates it.
I didn’t always crate my last dog, till our house was broken into and she went missing for 4 hours. I didn’t care about the lose of material things, those 4 hours were the most agonizing 4 hours ever. I know how fortunate we were to get her back unharmed.
[QUOTE=S1969;7178551]
If everyone had a well-trained, adult dog that wouldn’t be destructive, nor relieve themselves in the house…most people wouldn’t use a crate! :)[/QUOTE]
Bingo!
[QUOTE=S1969;7178551]
I suspect that many dog owners don’t obtain perfect pets, nor do they all have the ability to perfectly train them. So, we choose the lesser of evils. Which isn’t all that horrible, if done well.[/QUOTE]
Bingo two!
When you adopt dogs with issues you deal with the issues to the best of ability.
No amount of stomping your feet and insisting that they should behave uncrated will turn them into pets that are safe when left alone.
