Crating throughout the work day (8-10 hours)

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Guin;7178414]
I’ve never crated any of my dogs. The only damage ever done was the un-stuffing of a couple of couch pillows when I stupidly forgot to gate the 8-month old retriever beast in the TV room. I don’t see why a well-trained, adult dog would or should be destructive if left alone in a house. They can look out the windows and bark at the squirrels, or play with a toy, or sleep on the bed. How is that not better than staring at the inside of a 4 x 3 plastic box all day long?[/QUOTE]

You’re very lucky. And you didn’t have my last collie. She was an attempted suicide machine for the first 6 years of her life. For her own protection, she was crated while I wasn’t home. I had locks, knobs removed from drawers and childproof locks on everything and still she got into trouble. She could even open the refrigerator.

My cocker one the other hand, had full access to the house at 9 months. If no one was home, she went upstairs and slept on her blanket on the bed.

[toady123]

While not ideal I think there are far worse fates in the world than being crated for 8-9 hours. When we got our two rescues they started out with a little freedom, wrecked a few things and then we started crating. They had a routine and had no problems. I would be putting on my shoes and both dogs would go into their crates and wait for me to shut the door without even being asked. They did get lots of exercise when we were home (they get a run at an off-leash area for an hour in the morning, and usually a walk or a romp at night). They are perfectly happy and fine.

I don’t see why having a dog should mean that they are free to destroy things because crating is ‘cruel’. Not only do I worry about my stuff, I more worry about their health (I have a cousin who is a vet and have seen photos of the varied and interesting things she has had to surgically remove from pets).

The two have now graduated to having accessing to the mud room and basement and crates have been put away. We have noticed no difference in terms of their behaviour, except they sleep all day on a bed on the floor rather than in a crate.

[Anne_FS]

The misunderstandings and defensiveness in this thread are bizarre, even by COH standards. It seems pretty well established that problem animals need to be caged but people are jumping to the conclusion that anti-caging = dogs free to destroy things.

Nobody’s ever said your destructive nervebag of a dog should be left free to destroy your house.

[toady123]

Anne FS I was reading comments like the ones below as a slam to those do crate.

The implication (to me) is that I should really do a better job managing my dogs rather than be worried about my house. Perhaps I should have worded my last post better (as I realize nobody is advocating letting a dog rip your house apart), however there does seem to be, according to my interpretation, attitudes that crating a dog = lazy, incompetent owner which I don’t personally agree with.

My two are not bad dogs - we have put time and effort into their obedience training. But when the two of them get wound up they feed off each other and they can act like twits if someone is not there to break up the party. While they matured crating was the most reasonable way to make this happen when we were not home. And yes, sometimes up to 8 hours.

[QUOTE=wendy;7177888]
I think it’s utterly cruel to routinely cage your dog all day every day just because you can’t figure out how to train it behave in the house, or don’t exercise it enough so it can behave in the house. A tired dog is a good dog. [/QUOTE]

@vacation1;7177151

I’m just a little bothered by how far we’ve come from the early days of crates, when people reacted to them as little cages, to now viewing them so positively that they’re considered as an alternative to risking your rug. Not a slam on anyone here, just the reality that you know there are people jumping on the “crate good” zeitgeist to justify never letting their dog loose in their house.

[beowulf]

i would say my dogs are very well behaved… but they still go in their crate everyday while I and the SO are at work. you can talk to them, but they don’t view it as cruelty… by the time they see me change into my work clothes they are already in their crates, half asleep.

the tone in this thread implying the people who crate are “lazy” or “cant figure out how to train a dog” is a little offputting. MY dogs are well-adjusted, trained animals – but i would never allow all of them free roam of the house. it would be utterly cruel of me to allow them this liberty – god forbid someone get outside and killed, or they get themselves into a dangerous situation (like a collar stuck on a nail, or maybe two dogs get into a spat) while i am not home. i’ll take the risk of them being a little bored if it means they’ll stick around longer.

[My_Two_Cents]

I don’t think the issue of crating them for 8 hours is near as important as what you do with them the other 16 hours. Our dogs get crated when we are not home for their own safety. Dogs are known for making bad choices (garbage, pillow de-stuffing, cleaning chemicals, electrical cord, etc). If you crate them for 8 hours and then have some quality time I don’t think crating is such a big deal. If you crate them and then ignore them that’s a different story. I don’t think taking them to the barn and turning them loose on other peoples property while you go have your horse time is the right solution either. If you are going to have dogs you need to make the time to have dogs.

[Houndhill]

While I completely understand why you would not allow a dog who was destructive or not reliably housetrained to have free run of your house for 8-10 hours a day, I wonder whether some dogs might thrive with a bit more space and choices. I understand that some live in a “sketchy” area and are afraid thieves might come into their house or steal their dogs, but others, who live in more secure or rural areas, might consider a dog door from someplace like a laundry room (of course I know there are dogs who would eat the drywall!).

That could lead into a privacy fenced or if necessary, roofed kennel run. The dog might have a little more room, and you could enrich the environment as appropriate. Perhaps the dog might benefit from having a bit more opportunity to move about. Or, if you have several dogs, a little building that was heated and had a/c is not that expensive, and could have runs or paddocks off it. Many have barns on their property, could not something safe and secure be built off a climate controlled tackroom for the time the owners were at work?

There is adequate maintenance for the dog’s well being, and there is optimal maintenance. I think all options should be considered when deciding how your dogs will live when you are not at home to supervise them. Believe me, I totally understand that some dogs cannot be left unsupervised in the house, especially for extended periods of time. I wonder though, whether their lives could be enriched if living options other than crating might be considered.

If crating for the workday is the only option that works, that is fine, I’m sure your dogs are happy and many times would be dead if this were not an option, I understand about rescues and crazy dogs! Just wanted to encourage people to consider a variety of management options if they had to work all day.

I know I am very fortunate to have the dogs and facilities I do, and because they are “giant”, IW people tend to be creative, as crating is so often just not an option because of the size of the dogs.

[Houndhill]

…and of course, when you are home, the dogs need at least some of your attention/excercise/training/quality time!

But, when you are not at home, if they are crated, they have little choice but to go dormant and sleep. If other options were available…they would probably sleep some, but also explore, play, move about, run, and interact, etc.depending upon what the social and physical environment offered as far as stimulation. A video camera is very interesting! My dogs seem to sleep near me whenever I am home inside, but if I am not at home, or outside, they are outside, doing a variety of dog activities.

[Burbank]

Whiskey was never crated, once he was housetrained he was housetrained, did not have an accident till he was on a diuretic, but he was hard to housetrain, he did need a window to look out of or he would make a hole in the blinds till he could see

Remy and Kahlua are crated for their own good
he is not quite 2 1/2 and at times trying to test boundaries with Kahlua, he also can be a very destructive chewer and a counter surfer

she is on a strict diet, if she goes off she will get diarrhea, and once I tried to leave her in the bedroom and she dug through the carpet to the hardwood floor

and with Remy trying to test his status I much prefer to keep them crated next to each other than loose

they can each stand and lay out flat in their crates and turnaround without any problems

[vacation1]

I’m finding it difficult to understand the idea that being loose inside a house can be so hazardous to the average pet dog that a crate is essential. Yes, a young dog will find something to destroy, a neurotic dog does better with fewer stimuli, etc., but I’m getting the impression that for some, having a dog loose alone in your home is like letting your dog roam the neighborhood all day - just crazy and dangerous for no purpose. I guess everyone’s risk tolerance is different, but I had kind of assumed I was the extreme helicopter dog owner and finding out there are people who regard my ownership habits as hazardous is a bit funny.

[kelliope]

I kind of have to agree with you, vacation1. And for all the hazards people are listing, there are others that could happen to a crated dog such as a house fire.

My chis have free run of the house and access to our back yard via a dog door. They are happy and well adjusted (as chis can be!), though they are rarely left home alone. They come with me every day and I rarely go anywhere overnight that doesn’t allow dogs. If I do, the pups go to my moms farm.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=vacation1;7179923]
I guess everyone’s risk tolerance is different, but I had kind of assumed I was the extreme helicopter dog owner and finding out there are people who regard my ownership habits as hazardous is a bit funny.[/QUOTE]

Naw. I do not think anyone is saying your habits are hazardous if they work for you and your dog(s).

Dogs are different. You clearly have dogs that do well loose.

I am not sure what a house fire has to do with preventing your dog from getting in trouble…

I have owned a dog that could be loose in the house when not home.
I have owned a dog that could not be loose in the house but did fine closed safely in a reasonably dog proof room (he could open cupboards so bathroom and kitchen were not an option).
I now own dogs that require crating when I am not there to supervise them.

The one thing I have never thought was safe was leaving your dogs outside while you are not there all day. Too much can go wrong. Even in nice neighborhoods. I also live by the theory that my neighbor did not ask to own my dogs so my neighbor should not be bothered by my dogs. If they are able to go out and bark at life all day it would be a nuisance to my neighbors.

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7179630]
I know I am very fortunate to have the dogs and facilities I do[/QUOTE]

After reading your earlier post describing your facilities, would you mind posting photos? I really want to see your setup! Sounds ideal.

[paulaedwina]

My dogs have always had access to the yard when I am not home. Risk is everywhere, but I am willing to take these risks because I think the benefit outweighs it by miles. Similarly my horse is turned out 24/7 -some find that too risky too. As the other poster says; we all have different risk tolerances.

Paula

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=toady123;7179045]
My two are not bad dogs - we have put time and effort into their obedience training. But when the two of them get wound up they feed off each other and they can act like twits if someone is not there to break up the party. While they matured crating was the most reasonable way to make this happen when we were not home. And yes, sometimes up to 8 hours.[/QUOTE]

Well, then, why not have one crated in a separate room and leave the other loose in the house, and rotate?

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;7180107]
My dogs have always had access to the yard when I am not home. Risk is everywhere, but I am willing to take these risks because I think the benefit outweighs it by miles. Similarly my horse is turned out 24/7 -some find that too risky too. As the other poster says; we all have different risk tolerances.

Paula[/QUOTE]

It all depends on your location. I would assume if you were in an area that was having problems with dog theft, which many are, you would decide to keep them inside.

[paulaedwina]

How many are in areas where dog theft is a problem?

Paula

[Ms_Red_Britches]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;7176563]
I think it’s important to crate train dogs because they need to be familiar with being transported, boarded, or hospitalized should the need arise. It’s just like with horses -you’d hate that the first time your horse gets loaded is the day it needs to be evacuated or transported. Paula[/QUOTE]

THIS.

I live in a hurricane zone and I worry about my old girl, who despises a crate, in the event we will need to evacuate or live in extreme conditions where confinement is necessary. She was never crate trained (OUR MISTAKE) and now we’re having to deal with that.

On a more normal case, I’m trying to figure out what to do with her while we go on vacation. She would be miserable in a vet-type kenneling.

Our puppy (11 months, 75 lbs.) could care less, but then, we crated him until he could be trusted inside and we fenced in the backyard. Both are jumpers, so the fence has a light-duty (specifically for dogs and smaller animals) hot wire on it.

All that said, my girl and I both have additional stress because I chose not to crate her. Never again will I have a dog that doesn’t crate.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7180104]
After reading your earlier post describing your facilities, would you mind posting photos? I really want to see your setup! Sounds ideal.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I dont have any good photos to share, but the kennel building is nothing fancy, though we built it specifically for the wolfhounds, so it has served us pretty well over the years. The problem with the wolfhounds is that they are sized somewhere between conventionally sized dogs, and horses, so their facilities have to be bigger and more robust than most dog facilities. Also, they are social, so are ideally kept in groups, sort of like foxhounds, rather than individually.

Our building has three interior “rooms”, each is 8 x 12, and contains the dog beds, toys, bones, etc. and usually 2-4 adult wolfhounds, or more younger puppies. Two rooms can be combined to make one 12 x 16 room if necessary. Each has a dog door that leads into a 50’ x 8’ run with six foot high fencing, and that leads into a paddock of about an acre, some wooded and some open, with 8’ tall fencing. The paddock leads down to the barn, so they can follow me and watch me at the barn. There is usually no one staying in the middle run, but it acts a a “buffer” so bitches in heat are not nose to nose with intact males. There is an aisle in the kennel, a sink, raised bathtub, fridge and freezer. It has a propane furnace and an efficient window a/c unit that does a good job.

Not to derail this thread, but, funny story. When we built the kennel, we had to get a building permit of course, and it turned out we would have had to put in a special septic system for the bathtub, as they considered water from bathing animals as “toxic waste”! So I had to fib a little, and say the tub was for me to bathe in. I can’t imagine why they thought I would suddenly be overcome with an urge to take a bath in the kennel, but they did allow us to do it. (Actually we did use it a couple of times, seems to me when we had a water heater issue in the house, it came in handy!). And it turns out I use the raised bathtub only for bathing puppies, because the adults can’t easily turn around in it, so they are usually bathed in the wash stall, where there is more room.

When my numbers have gotten down, there have been times that no one actually stays in the kennel, but has been very nice to have to feed them in, and keep all the dog equipment and smelly things like tripe in. It is also nice to have when I do have young puppies that cannot be trusted loose in the house unsupervised, or need to separate because of bitches in heat, etc. DH prefers not to exceed four or five wolfhounds in the house at one time, so we have a rotation schedule when numbers are greater than that.

We do also have a dog door out the laundry room that goes into another fenced area, and one off the back bedroom that leads to a privacy fenced area, which is great for guests, bitches in heat, and it is where I whelp and raise puppies while they are young.

Hope that clarifies! You got the thousand words instead of the picture!

[GraceLikeRain]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;7179630]

There is adequate maintenance for the dog’s well being, and there is optimal maintenance. I think all options should be considered when deciding how your dogs will live when you are not at home to supervise them. [/QUOTE]

Fantastic point.

I am deeply bothered by people who say “Pumpkin is happy to live in her current situation because if it weren’t for me she would be dead.” That may be true but it certainly doesn’t mean that Pumpkin might not be a heck of a lot happier with some additional accommodations. Pumpkin doesn’t know she almost died and she certainly isn’t sitting around dwelling on how lucky she is to be alive.

I think we have a duty to provide an enriched life for our dogs. How it looks will vary substantially according to our living situations and the personalities of our dogs but I do not think that means we should not aim for the highest quality of life possible.