Creating a grain regimen for a horse with corn, preservative and binder allergies?

[tellingnotales]

After months of ulcer treatment, scoping and testing it has been found that my 7yo ottb gelding has inflammatory bowel and leaky gut symptoms from what was thougt to be “food allergies.” Blood panels show that he is allergic to Corn and most of the peresertives and binders found in commercial pelted grain.

Anyway, I am in the process of switching him over to a “whole grain” diet to rule out corn contamination and limit preservative. Oats, barely, beet pulp etc. I’m just trying to figure out how much of each can give him a balanced diet. He is currently on 4lbs of Alfa lox forage, 2lbs of soaked beet pulp, a half pound of black oil sunflower seeds, 4oz of flax, coconut oil, a pro and pre biotic, electrolytes, a multi vitamin and a joint supplement. As he a harder keeper to begin with and an active show Hunter I am trying my best to balance his fat and protein level to insure he is getting what he needs to keep weight and build healthy muscle tone.

Thanks for reading!

[Dajuliz]

We had an arabian gelding that was a hard keeper. We actually had great success with just plain oats, roasted soybeans, and cold pressed soybean oil. We also allowed him full access to a quality loose trace mineral/salt supplement. We weighed and measured everything that he ate trying to get the right balance. He was also digestively sensitive and subject to ulcers and choke so pelleted feed was out of the question for him. So his typical dinner was 1 lb of beet pulp (soaked), 2 lb oats, 1/2 lb roasted soybeans, 1/2 cup cold pressed soybean oil and free choice grassy/alfalfa hay.

[jennycash]

I would stay away from grains in general. Up your forage!

[Simkie]

My hard keepers do marvelously on straight alfalfa, free choice. I have to feed very little concentrates at all. Perhaps something to consider.

[LookmaNohands]

Allergy shots!

[JB]

What preservatives and binder ingredients specifically? Mixed tocopherols is a common preservative. Molasses is a common binder.

[tellingnotales]

Hi all, he has access all day to free choice to orchard grass/tomothy second cut. His hay is always fed in a slow feed Hay net. He is also turned out in a large grass paddock with three other geldings. Both in his stall and out in his pasture he has access to free choice salt and fresh water. Alfa Lox Forage is an alfalfa based feed wirh pre and probiotics and an acid buffer. He is fed four pounds of that three times a day along with two 1lb serving of beetpulp. His allergen list includes Corn, molasses, Lignasol, and Ethoxyquin

[Simkie]

Why do you need to add grain at all?

Add something like this to his bucket and call it a day.

If he just needs weight, I’d add alfalfa hay and/or more oil.

Are you using the beet pulp shreds? I would fear the pellets would contain binders, although perhaps not, because I’ve never seen them on a label…

[tellingnotales]

He is fed 12lbs of alfa lox (chopped alfalfa hay with pre and probiotics and an acid buffer) a day along with all the free choice orchard/tomothy hay he can eat. He also gets 2lbs of soaked beet pulp shreds, a half pound of black oil sunflower seeds, 4oz of flax, a half a pound of rice bran, coconut oil, a pro and pre biotic, electrolytes, a multi vitamin and a joint supplement. My biggest struggle with him is that he doesn’t eat nearly enough hay, despite it always being available to him. As a young and athletic ottb he has an extremely high metabolism and a ton of energy. He works hard and plays hard, and it would seem that he would rather play halter tag or with his jolly ball instead of consume enough hay to keep his weight where I want it. While his behavior, skin, hoof and stomach issues have all dramatically improved since we took him off comerical feed, his weight and muscle tone have suffered.

[Simkie]

So you’re really just looking for more weight and muscle?

I still think you should add more alfalfa and/or more oil

You may find that your horse thinks hay is a LOT more interesting if it’s got a considerable amount of alfalfa in it. The protein and higher calorie content will add weight and muscle, the high calcium will help his belly and the increased forage will make him healthier in general.

12 lbs a day of the aflalox is fine, but barring that funny sensitivity that some horses have, you can go a LOT higher. I have three that each go through ~40lbs of alfalfa hay a day when there’s no grass.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=tellingnotales;8268029]
He is fed 12lbs of alfa lox (chopped alfalfa hay with pre and probiotics and an acid buffer) a day along with all the free choice orchard/tomothy hay he can eat. He also gets 2lbs of soaked beet pulp shreds, a half pound of black oil sunflower seeds, 4oz of flax, a half a pound of rice bran, coconut oil, a pro and pre biotic, electrolytes, a multi vitamin and a joint supplement. My biggest struggle with him is that he doesn’t eat nearly enough hay, despite it always being available to him. As a young and athletic ottb he has an extremely high metabolism and a ton of energy. He works hard and plays hard, and it would seem that he would rather play halter tag or with his jolly ball instead of consume enough hay to keep his weight where I want it. While his behavior, skin, hoof and stomach issues have all dramatically improved since we took him off comerical feed, his weight and muscle tone have suffered.[/QUOTE]

Take his hay OUT of your “slow-feed” hay net and feed him on the GROUND in his stall–a big pile, with more added as soon as he cleans it up. You can NOT get a true free-choice amount of hay in a horse with a nibble net. How much rice could YOU eat if you had to eat it a grain at a time, with CHOPSTICKS? :rolleyes: While I understand why people think they are feeding this way, you are shooting yourself in the foot with it if the aim is to get the maximum amount of forage into the horse.

I’d get rid of the coconut, the flax, the sunflower, the probiotics and the joint supplement. They don’t do much except make his feed unappetizing. UP THE HAY, provide plenty of water, and be aware that a young, bouncy high-energy TB is SUPPOSED to be a lean, “ectomorph” body type–not the sloppyfat “hunter” that’s seen these days flinging his lard over fences. A 4.5 on the Henneke scale is a healthy weight for a guy like this–and I wouldn’t feed a lot of unnatural junk to try and change that.

If he MUST have a grain, make it a blend of steam-crimped oats and rolled barley–Old Skool but my guy evented on it for 8 years with no issues!

[candico]

I disagree. My picky, hard keeper guys both have been eating much more hay once I started using the Nibble Net. If I put hay on the ground and in the net, they always go to the net first. I think with their uppity personalities, they are much more engaged with their food when they get to yank it out of the net vs push it around the stall. Guess every horse is different… So to the OP, you could experiment with how the hay is fed, but I agree that oil is an easy way to up the calories. My highly allergic mare was sensitive to Soybean oil though, so may have to be careful with that. Tried coconut oil, but saw no added benefit except my softer hands from mixing it in… over canola oil.

Also might try a high quality hay pellet free choice vs grain. Have seen that fatten them up without making them crazy.

[Simkie]

Totally agree, candico. Mine eat waaaaay more if I net their hay vs having it loose. Although they sure do like peeing in it and sleeping in it if I give them a pile! A net with 2" holes doesn’t slow them down at all. I think the “greedy feeder” type thing with the little tiny holes would limit intake.

Perhaps Lady E hasn’t ever actually used a slow feeder net?

[tellingnotales]

Alfalfa is something I am definitely thinking about upping in his diet. if you look at my original post I was wondering what quantity of “old-school” grains such as barley and oats that I should think about adding to his diet. He is happy to eat his mush of beet pulp, sunflower seeds, flax and coconut oil and his supplements. He licks his feed bin clean! The pro and prebiotics and Alfa lox forage were recommended by my vet to help with his gastro issues. As he’s had several rounds of ulcer scoping and treatment (most ulcer episodes are now being contributed to his food sensitivities.) She also recommended the slow feed hay net for a couple of reasons. Apparently, there have been studies that show the slow feed Hay net helps to simulate grazing and helps with ulcery and underweight horses. Secondly, he is one of those horses always looking to play with something and make it a game. the slow feed Haynet keeps him entertained and engaged and he eats a lot more. I’ve tested it- putting the same quantity of hay in the net one one night and putting it on the ground the next… On the night that he had the hay net, nearly all of it was eaten by morning. On the night I gave it to him free, more then half was strewn about his stall, peed on and left for me to muck out. I am no stranger to young thoroughbreds, or the hunter ring. I have no delusions that he’ll ever be as round or as fat as the $50,000+ Imported German wasmblood. Nor do I want him to be, but I would like to be able to keep him at a healthy weight

[JB]

I would not even entertain grains for this particular horse with his issues. There’s no telling what they could do to him.

A handful as a treat? Sure. As any significant part of a concentrated diet? Nope.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8268367]
Totally agree, candico. Mine eat waaaaay more if I net their hay vs having it loose. Although they sure do like peeing in it and sleeping in it if I give them a pile! A net with 2" holes doesn’t slow them down at all. I think the “greedy feeder” type thing with the little tiny holes would limit intake.

Perhaps Lady E hasn’t ever actually used a slow feeder net?[/QUOTE]

Hay nets don’t “mesh” (forgive the pun) with our management style here, so we only use them in the trailer. Not one strand of our hay gets wasted because we feed in a group an amount that gets cleaned up before it has an opportunity to get strewn and soiled. We’re feeding primarily outside.

I’ve certainly seen nibble nets in action, and to my mind there is no comparison with the amount of hay the horse can extract through those narrow meshes vs. the large mouthfuls he can eat in a natural position. If you’re a fan of nets for neatness and waste reasons, which is not a bad reason, use a normal mesh one where the poor guy doesn’t have to FIGHT the thing to get his hay. The small-mesh jobbies are intended for SLOWING DOWN the hay consumption of overweight and Cushingoid horses, not actually for general use. That’s nothing but a FAD, and its basis is the equally faddish hysteria right now about supposed “ulcers.” Nibble nets are STILL not a substitute for adequate turnout!

Please bear in mind also that a horse’s digestive system lacks the chemical equipment to utilize the amount of man-made OILS many people today insist on feeding. All this “omega 3” people are feeding etc. has NO precedent in the natural diet of the horse which is FORAGE and only that. GRASS and good quality hay, fed in appropriate quantity to a horse with good dentition, are a far superior choice to ANY vegetable oil of which the majority are not only primarily omega 6, they are highly inflammation promotive besides. Once again, the horse did not evolve to eat this stuff! If you’re having hind-gut trouble and allergies, these are EXACTLY the things you want to eliminate first. Fish oil REALLY kills me–what horse would EVER choose to go lick a dead fish, I ask you?! This is nothing more than human “nutritionism” extrapolated onto herbivores where by definition it doesn’t apply.

Up the hay, lose the junk. Hey, if you’ve already tried all the snake oil and pseudoscience woo-woo but your horse still isn’t where you want him, what have you got to lose by trying what worked unfailingly for the Cavalry? :winkgrin:

The bottom line is that today 90% of barns are really not haying enough.

[whbar158]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8268632]
Hay nets don’t “mesh” (forgive the pun) with our management style here, so we only use them in the trailer. Not one strand of our hay gets wasted because we feed in a group an amount that gets cleaned up before it has an opportunity to get strewn and soiled. We’re feeding primarily outside.

I’ve certainly seen nibble nets in action, and to my mind there is no comparison with the amount of hay the horse can extract through those narrow meshes vs. the large mouthfuls he can eat in a natural position. If you’re a fan of nets for neatness and waste reasons, which is not a bad reason, use a normal mesh one where the poor guy doesn’t have to FIGHT the thing to get his hay. The small-mesh jobbies are intended for SLOWING DOWN the hay consumption of overweight and Cushingoid horses, not actually for general use. That’s nothing but a FAD, and its basis is the equally faddish hysteria right now about supposed “ulcers.” Nibble nets are STILL not a substitute for adequate turnout!

Please bear in mind also that a horse’s digestive system lacks the chemical equipment to utilize the amount of man-made OILS many people today insist on feeding. All this “omega 3” people are feeding etc. has NO precedent in the natural diet of the horse which is FORAGE and only that. GRASS and good quality hay, fed in appropriate quantity to a horse with good dentition, are a far superior choice to ANY vegetable oil of which the majority are not only primarily omega 6, they are highly inflammation promotive besides. Once again, the horse did not evolve to eat this stuff! If you’re having hind-gut trouble and allergies, these are EXACTLY the things you want to eliminate first. Fish oil REALLY kills me–what horse would EVER choose to go lick a dead fish, I ask you?! This is nothing more than human “nutritionism” extrapolated onto herbivores where by definition it doesn’t apply.

Up the hay, lose the junk. Hey, if you’ve already tried all the snake oil and pseudoscience woo-woo but your horse still isn’t where you want him, what have you got to lose by trying what worked unfailingly for the Cavalry? :winkgrin:

The bottom line is that today 90% of barns are really not haying enough.[/QUOTE]

I think it does depend on the horse. My friends barn uses nets, puts a whole bale in it. Since doing it this way all the horses get enough hay, while before sometimes horses didn’t get their full portion bc it was the end of the bale or like my horse drag their hay to their water and make an awful mess and waste a lot on the floor. Outside they have grass and access to a round bale. So it does depend on your horses and your set up on what system you use. My friend has found an excellent system for her barn to provide hay 24/7 to all her horses. But I really agree about most barns do no hay enough at all, my friend use to be one because of a stupid contract with the person she leased the barn from, she has since moved and things are WAY better. She does use the smaller holed nets (but not the tiny ones) and all of the horses get plenty and several have their nets double netted to slow them down more. I am really impressed with how well her horses look overall, there are a few that are too fat, and a few that could gain (but she is working on that) but she does keep it simple, good quality forage based fed, 16 hours of turn out for the stalled horses, and lots of hay.

As for the OP’s horse, alfalfa hay, beet pulp and a vit/min should cover you. Experiment with what gets him to eat the most hay but I would keep it as simple as possible, with as many allergies as your horse has adding this and that may make it worse as you may be adding things that were not tested for.

[JB]

With all the recent advances and publicity of truly small hole/nibble nets, I see a lot of people use that term when they really mean just a regular hay net.

A regular hay net does a HUGE amount for still allowing a lot of hay intake with a greatly reduced amount of waste.

As well, some horses are truly masters of eating great deals of hay with a small hole net, which is why some people resort to double-netting with small hole nets.

What is MORE helpful in this particular situation is to know how much hay the horse is actually going through. If he’s actually consuming 30lb it doesn’t matter if it’s in a true small-hole net.

[tellingnotales]

I would say eats nearly a full 40lb square bale of second cut Timothy/orchard hay a day by himself. Three bales are fed out to his pasture of four geldings each day and he has 3/4 of s bale stuffed into his his hay net at night. Not to mention his pasture is kept lush, as we rotate the paddocks regularly to allow them to grow up.

[tellingnotales]

I would estimate that he eats a whole 40lb second cut Timothy/orchard square bale by himself every day. His pasture of four geldings is fed three bales a day and he is given 3/4 of a bale stuffed into his hay net every night. Not to mention he is kept on lush pasture, as we routinely rotate their pastures to allow the grass to grow up.