Creating the lease horse?

[mvp]

I’m old and out of touch with the modern H/J industry, but someone tried to sell me a very, very nice OTTB prospect recently by pointing out that I could finish him up and lease him out forever and ever and make money.

What? So my questions:

1. Is it true that the useful lease horse can be of any breed? Their point was that if I didn’t want to own or try to sell a TB in a world of WBs, I certainly could make the money I wanted with a great lease horse because people will pay a premium to use the useful horse even if they won’t pay a premium to own the “off breed” horse.

2. Can the old, not-clueless “good ammy” successfully lease out a horse a lot? IME, that role really belongs to the well-connected pro who sends the horse only to other pros that she knows and trusts. Sure, I can write a strong contract and keep tabs on the horse. But without the pull and knowledge of being a trainer in the industry, can I really expect to have a lessee’s pro do all it takes to keep my horse sound and happy?

3. And just how long does a “leased out all the time” career last for a horse? People quote me fantastic numbers and percentages of the horse’s value for lease fees. But does that happen once or twice? Or can you do that for a decade with a horse who is managed carefully and manages to stay sound?

Thanks for your input. Leasing has changed and expanded several times during my time and I’m not sure if it’s the great option today that it appears to be. But from the lessee’s side and the pro’s side renting the horse you need today and giving it back tomorrow seems obviously great.

FWIW, I liked that idea because I like developing horses. I was also surprised that it was hard to find a pro who wasn’t willing to put a good 90 days (and a lead change) on this horse to finish him off and then start leasing him to her clients. But no pros that this horse was shown to wanted to own a horse or own one that wasn’t packing around ammies now.

[Midge]

Your lease horse has to be something special to be leased over and over again. Not necessarily extra fancy, though that would be good, but a specialist at his job, such as an equitation horse, or be the same animal every single time he walks into the ring, have a truly automatic lead change, tolerate mistakes. Ponies especially get leased for years and years, even non-division ponies. Leases can also include whatever limitations you want, such as how many shows, how many miles on the truck, what it eats, who the trainer is, etc.

1.It won’t matter what breed if it has a show record
2. It would be best to go through a connected pro
3. As long as he’s sound and does the job

The finish in 90 days and start leasing, is not necessarily the route. That horse, unless very fancy, would be a very, very cheap lease because it has nothing in the bank, skills-wise. Much of the time, lease horses are leased for their skills and people lease horses to attain a certain goal. A kid with no money might lease a horse than has a minimal show record because that is the only way they get steady rides and the lease is cheap. But that might not be the route to get your horse to the point where he’s leased year after year.

You have to get him there first.

[clanter]

@mvp

but someone tried to sell me a very, very nice OTTB prospect recently by pointing out that I could finish him up and lease him out forever and ever and make money.

if so, then why doesn’t this someone do it rather than sell (dump?) this wonderful “prospect” on to you?

[fivestrideline]

@Midge

Your lease horse has to be something special to be leased over and over again.

This. On-property, in-barn leases are common for that good citizen safe type of whatever breed that can pack anyone around. They may not be making bank, but they’ll pay their bills. This assumes a program that brings in this type of client - just having the horse at some random barn will not be conducive to such leases.

Those year after year leases? Like the ones on famous packer ponies and equitation horses, that come with a “recipe for success”? The ones that likely are making a profit for their owners? That’s a specialist horse with YEARS of excellent results under their belt. You don’t put 90 days and a lead change on a horse and start leasing them out to people. That’s a good way to get an unusable horse back - successful leases have a very good understanding of their job and go to programs that train and manage in a similar way. This is why hunter ponies tend to lease for a million years - they’re sturdy, know their job, and kiddo needs to just follow the plan without trying to get all fancy.

This can be done with any breed of horse with the right brain, but the investment is in a measure of years, not months. I saw Splash Attack’s ad on BigEq yesterday - that’s the type of horse that is a successful lease year after year.

[Midge]

@clanter

@mvp

but someone tried to sell me a very, very nice OTTB prospect recently by pointing out that I could finish him up and lease him out forever and ever and make money.

if so, then why doesn’t this someone do it rather than sell (dump?) this wonderful “prospect” on to you?

Everyone has different skill sets.

[mvp]

@Midge

Your lease horse has to be something special to be leased over and over again. Not necessarily extra fancy, though that would be good, but a specialist at his job, such as an equitation horse, or be the same animal every single time he walks into the ring, have a truly automatic lead change, tolerate mistakes. Ponies especially get leased for years and years, even non-division ponies. Leases can also include whatever limitations you want, such as how many shows, how many miles on the truck, what it eats, who the trainer is, etc.

1.It won’t matter what breed if it has a show record
2. It would be best to go through a connected pro
3. As long as he’s sound and does the job

The finish in 90 days and start leasing, is not necessarily the route. That horse, unless very fancy, would be a very, very cheap lease because it has nothing in the bank, skills-wise. Much of the time, lease horses are leased for their skills and people lease horses to attain a certain goal. A kid with no money might lease a horse than has a minimal show record because that is the only way they get steady rides and the lease is cheap. But that might not be the route to get your horse to the point where he’s leased year after year.

You have to get him there first.

Thank you! I appreciate your taking the time to explain all that to me. It certainly rings true.

As to the 90 days, I assumed that this situation would be one where the pro had a good-riding client on a budget who could take on some of the bills soon-ish with those basic skills installed, but that the pro and lessee could continue to polish the horse until his resume got longer. I think I skipped ahead in my mind to, yanno, Missy Clark’s barn where one horse was leased out over and over and made a ton of money.

I tend to make horses that just about anyone can ride. I can see that mind inside a “raw” prospect of a horse. So I love the idea of developing one. But if I don’t want to own the end result…

[mvp]

@clanter

@mvp

but someone tried to sell me a very, very nice OTTB prospect recently by pointing out that I could finish him up and lease him out forever and ever and make money.

if so, then why doesn’t this someone do it rather than sell (dump?) this wonderful “prospect” on to you?

Good question. This horse belongs to a friend of mine, an eventer, with a job. She has a track trainer who knows the type of horses she like and made her a deal she could not refuse on this one. She ran out of time and interest,

I love me a nice hunter and I like making up horses. So I volunteered to help her school him some and sell him. The more obvious plan was to sell him to me… if I could figure out why I would want to own him.

[mvp]

@fivestrideline

@Midge

Your lease horse has to be something special to be leased over and over again.

This. On-property, in-barn leases are common for that good citizen safe type of whatever breed that can pack anyone around. They may not be making bank, but they’ll pay their bills. This assumes a program that brings in this type of client - just having the horse at some random barn will not be conducive to such leases.

Those year after year leases? Like the ones on famous packer ponies and equitation horses, that come with a “recipe for success”? The ones that likely are making a profit for their owners? That’s a specialist horse with YEARS of excellent results under their belt. You don’t put 90 days and a lead change on a horse and start leasing them out to people. That’s a good way to get an unusable horse back - successful leases have a very good understanding of their job and go to programs that train and manage in a similar way. This is why hunter ponies tend to lease for a million years - they’re sturdy, know their job, and kiddo needs to just follow the plan without trying to get all fancy.

This can be done with any breed of horse with the right brain, but the investment is in a measure of years, not months. I saw Splash Attack’s ad on BigEq yesterday - that’s the type of horse that is a successful lease year after year.

Thank you.

See my earlier reply. One of my dream jobs, besides biotech patent attorney and air traffic controller, would have been making up Missy Clark’s equitation horses to lease out over and over. Sigh. I was a poor but well-educated barn rat who catch rode a lot and the groom who warmed up the horses on the flat at the shows before the pro got onto jump because I was a good technician.

But I had hoped/told my friend who owns this horse that this could be the right home for this horse-- belonging to a pro who could make him up and then lease him to kids just stepping out of a lesson program and into their first show horse.

When I was a sprout, leases were not nearly as common as they are now. But today, I’m surprised to read about lease fees higher than 1/3 the value of the horse. And I’m really surprised to see lease fees attached to these “first horse”-type dudes. In my day, the only people leasing were kids with ponies and eq horses, or perhaps an in-barn lease of a horse whose kid had gone to college. I didn’t know people were paying lease fees for, say, a 2’6" horse. (BTW… this horse will not find the 3’6" hard, but he’s way too green to even talk about that at the moment. And (perhaps another thread)-- it’s hard to find a pro who wants to buy an OTTB prospect that will be an A/O horse. They see TB and “it will take a long time to get there” and I think they bail. I don’t know if my interpretation is correct.

What I needed to know, primarily, was whether or not an ammy could own that horse and find him continuous work with a pro like that… maybe with a tad of money coming to me. I have my own place. I live in Aiken were TBs are shown (though not necessarily by trainers only based here). But, again, I don’t want to own a horse who doesn’t have a clear and feasible job description.

[Midge]

He will tell you his job description as you ride him. He will have a hole because most horses do. He could certainly make up to be a horse you own and lease over and over again. He will need to go through a pro to get it done, but if he’s a good horse, that won’t be all that tricky. A lot of pros in Aiken and come through Aiken.

A pro will not want to buy him to lease to his good rider on a budget. The pro will want you to free lease him to her.

Then again, none of this could happen and you own the horse which you will sell for less than you have in him. That’s horses.

[dags]

By and large, lease horses are done with training. They are finished products with a documented show history doing the job they are to be leased for.

Leasing someone else’s green project often reads to the consumer like they are paying for the pleasure of training up your horse. And not just paying you, but also the pro that will inevitably be needed to bring the horse along. It’s not entirely unheard of, but usually a “cover the bills” situation, and not a “cover the bills, ALSO pay me, and return a horse that is better than it was when it left” (spoiler: the horse doesn’t always return better off than it was when it left).

While breed isn’t as important in a lease, I predict the TB will need to be twice as successful in the jr/am classes, and possibly for twice as long, than the standard WB put up for lease.

The money-making lease horses (if they are ever offered for sale) are usually purchased as a bit older, as a way to justify paying $40K for an 18 year old, knowing it can plod around the 2’ for years at approximately $25k/yr.

Or you’re Missy Clark, in which case none of the standard rules apply.

[mvp]

@Midge

He will tell you his job description as you ride him. He will have a hole because most horses do. He could certainly make up to be a horse you own and lease over and over again. He will need to go through a pro to get it done, but if he’s a good horse, that won’t be all that tricky. A lot of pros in Aiken and come through Aiken.

A pro will not want to buy him to lease to his good rider on a budget. The pro will want you to free lease him to her.

Then again, none of this could happen and you own the horse which you will sell for less than you have in him. That’s horses.

I understand all of it except for the “free lease to their rider.” Why would I do that? If I can make him easy for a fat old lady to ride… because I AM a fat old lady… why would I give him to some other fat old lady to ride… for free?

I take it your point is that the value to me would be in getting him off my pay roll and/or someone else paying to get him a résumé?

[Midge]

Not that it is what you should do, it is what the market is.

[mvp]

@dags

By and large, lease horses are done with training. They are finished products with a documented show history doing the job they are to be leased for.

Leasing someone else’s green project often reads to the consumer like they are paying for the pleasure of training up your horse. And not just paying you, but also the pro that will inevitably be needed to bring the horse along. It’s not entirely unheard of, but usually a “cover the bills” situation, and not a “cover the bills, ALSO pay me, and return a horse that is better than it was when it left” (spoiler: the horse doesn’t always return better off than it was when it left).

While breed isn’t as important in a lease, I predict the TB will need to be twice as successful in the jr/am classes, and possibly for twice as long, than the standard WB put up for lease.

The money-making lease horses (if they are ever offered for sale) are usually purchased as a bit older, as a way to justify paying $40K for an 18 year old, knowing it can plod around the 2’ for years at approximately $25k/yr.

Or you’re Missy Clark, in which case none of the standard rules apply.

Thanks for your insight, dags. I’m glad you weighed in.

So… I thought what you say up front: No one pays to train someone else’s horse; they pay to use up someone else’s made horse. That is how I have understood leasing forever and thought it was. And I did lease my finished show horse out once, planning on getting him back worse, not better, for the experience.

But then events and the rules slowly started to change.

Half-leasing “just regular horses”-- non-show horses, in boarding barns, no pro in sight started after the 2008 crash.

And then people who were running out of lesson opportunities started leasing horses that I thought were pretty low level. These were not Missy Clark horses, not even in the same genus. This was/is the market that I want to know about (not that this horse would need to land there).

The final straw was friends of mine (knowing that this horse is a green OTTB) quoting fantastic lease fees achieved by a friend or two (who had the seasoned WB one would expect) and trotted out this little business idea to me.

I figured that I needed to educate myself about what the non-Missy Clark leases look like today, in 2025, when a 2’6" horse is a valuable commodity.

[mvp]

@Midge

Not that it is what you should do, it is what the market is.

Yes, but my question was about this “any fat old lady can ride him” horse ever exists or comes up for lease. I am asking about how the market would create that product

Now that a 2’6" horse is A Thing; now that people who top out of lesson programs are asked to lease or half-lease horses, I’m wondering where these come from. I think I could make up that kind of horse all. day. long, and it would not be horribly expensive to do.

Or maybe there are lots of show horses stepping down that get these gigs?

[McGurk]

I have good friends who bought a greenish, not top of the line large pony 12 years ago. Not typey, but cute. Their kid rode it for 3 years, first SS, then Green Pony, then Children’s Pony. Not a rated division pony, or at least not a winner in the rated divisions. Our area has a really robust local show circuit, the equivalent of the old AHSA B or C shows. Lots of people show that circuit and a couple of the big local As. Pony is perfect for that job. He is totally an uncomplicated good do-be who goes around and does his job. Will never pin high in the hack, but will always pin over fences if the kid can steer.

He has been leased every single year since my friend’s kid out grew him (all in the same barn/show program) and will continue to be leased every year as long as he is sound. He’s on his third or fourth kid, taking them from SS to the local divisions and dabbling in the As. He’s also a great pony for the Pony Eq. He has paid for himself many, many times over.

So it can be done, but it doesn’t mean it’s easily done. Being associated with the right show program that encourages leases and has students that need that type of horse is key, finding something sound and good minded is also key. Luck also plays a huge part.

[teatime0714]

I’m in dressage land now, but was previously in hunter land and at a large (40+ stall) barn that had a string of these types of horses in the barn for leases in their program back in 2020-2022. They were super safe, on the fancy side to be lesson program horses, but not winning at HITS fancy. They tended to be the schooling show winners and could get in the ribbons at the local A shows barring rider mistakes. Folks would qualify for MA mini medal finals with them, but unlikely to be competitive at the finals. With them being on site leases they priced them monthly (6-12 month lease terms usually). Cost to lease was typically ~$1k/month plus board, shoes and vet care with a lesson requirement. Annual maintenance was averaged out to a monthly fee paid by the lessee for the months they were leasing if the terms were under a year. Frequently leased by families as a first time horse/pony to dip their toes in the “what does it mean to own a horse” ocean without actually committing to something long term. Essentially the program was using them as a way to bridge the gap between the lesson program and their higher end show program with this as a potential transition to further rider progression and necessitate purchasing a 3 ft+ horse for said rider to show.

[teatime0714]

@McGurk

So it can be done, but it doesn’t mean it’s easily done. Being associated with the right show program that encourages leases and has students that need that type of horse is key, finding something sound and good minded is also key. Luck also plays a huge part.

Bolding is mine - this is 100% the key and what I hit on in my answer as well. You need access to the program that has these types of clients. These larger programs that have the setup to sell these types of leases to their clients seem to be disappearing more each year, with many transitioning to more boutique style show programs that aren’t running big (or sometimes any) lesson programs.

[dags]

@mvp

Yes, I want to know about the market. Now that a 2’6" horse is A Thing. Now that people who top out of lesson programs are asked to lease or half-lease horses, I’m wondering where these come from. I think I could make up that kind of horse all. day. long, and it would not be horribly expensive to do.

Given your last sentence, it’s not the making it up part that’s expensive, it’s putting the show record on it that’s expensive.

The double whammy is that you appear to be a capable, if not good rider. And what the 2’6" market wants to see their potential lease horse do is save a blind monkey’s butt, over and over and over, and never miss a change.

The 2’6" market is wild. Absolutely can lease those out for 35k+++ a year, can also lease them out for free-1k/month because they’re old veterans with major maintenance costs. Or they’re not flashy. Or they move like a sewing machine (they really like hack ribbons at 2’6").

A 2’6" Do-Gooder with a respectable record of experience can definitely easily bring you $20k/25k year without being too special, and if your TB plumps up nicely and can lope down the lines it’s not an entirely unreasonable goal. Especially if it’s something you’d like to do anyway.

It can also break that very first year out on lease. Or not be one that can handle a year of bad riding without needing a 6 month tune-up afterwards.

So as a business plan? Nah. But as an excuse to acquire a cute, good-brained TB that you don’t really need but would enjoy having? Sure, why not. Put your miles on it then get some kid in a locally known program to pilot it around the Low Children’s and you may make your money back, possibly with profit

[BostonHJ]

Because after 90 days, he’s not a good candidate for a “fat old lady.” He’s going to be for someone on a specific budget that can afford board/vet/farrier etc but doesn’t have the extra to pay a lease fee, and is brave/capable enough of taking on a green horse. If you’re lucky, they have the funds to show him.

What you get out of it is frankly getting your horse trained and possibly a show record, and what they get out of it is having a sound animal to ride. If it goes well, it’s a win-win and at the end of this lease, NOW you have a marketable horse with some value. If it goes poorly, the horse has learned a lot of bad habits and received not the best of care.

[Mcl1]

@Midge

You have to get him there first

I was going to say the same thing. If you said your plan was to develop the horse, show it for a year or two, and then lease it out I could see it working IF the horse ends up easy, safe, sound and can get the job done.

I understand that you (OP) have the “ideal” scenario in your head of someone in a pro program on a budget, but unless you actually have someone in mind I would not count on finding that, and if you were able to find it, like others have said, it would probably be a free lease. Unfortunately I just don’t think there is much value in green TB’s until they have an established show record, even if you put a great foundation on them.