The problem occurs way before horses and riders are doing 4*s. They don’t get the lifetime competition miles, nor the systematic training.
There is also a huge amount of support provided to all involved by BE;
https://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/page.aspx?section=1184&itemTitle=Apprenticeship+Scheme
^ Bingo.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;7747789]
Thanks fordtracker.
Maybe a another 4* in the US and one in Canada is needed… crowd funding? lol[/QUOTE]
I suggested this about 15 pages ago and the response was that there were only so many times a horse can peak in a year, and there was really no room for another 4* on the calendar. Plus, FEI approval would have to be secured… Yadda, yadda.
Then I suggested a new division, called something like the “International Division”. This could be run in conjunction with existing *** events – and might involve using the *** track, but increasing the level of difficulty at 3 or 4 complexes which were also part of the *** track and changing the time allowed to that required for a ****. Dressage and stadium would be set at the same specifications used at ****.
I think this would not be so hard to accomplish. How many *** already exist? In the US, many **** horses go *** because that is what is available. If those top horses went in the International Division instead, they would be answering more **** questions without having to worry about creating **** events.
I would say a fall 4* would be great and Bromont would be a good option.
I disagree that you don;t have to worry about the EUropean dates. You want the European riders to come here and participate. That will take having some good prize money. A good date would be the end of September for the fall and that would land three weeks after Burghley and three weeks before Pau.
US equestrian sports will always be at a disadvantage because of the huge albatross that is showhunters around it’s neck.
It siphons off money, horses. riders, resources etc.
Definitely agree with the show hunter mess. That is a problem in MANY ways. It used to be part of the learning curve for most riders, now it is a specialty style that, IMO, teaches a seat that isn’t conducive to better riding. There are some hunter areas that that isn’t true these days, but not many.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;7748447]
US equestrian sports will always be at a disadvantage because of the huge albatross that is showhunters around it’s neck.
It siphons off money, horses. riders, resources etc.[/QUOTE]
But the UK also has showing. Better than US hunters, but still another draw for horse money. IIRC, Charlotte DuDressage turned to dressage because she lacked the money to continue in showing.
Another big problem with US hunters is that it’s horses-as-pageant rather than horses-as-competition. It’s no place for a kid who’s competitive and sporty. That applies to boys as well as girls – and what would a young boy want with hunters?
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;7748447]
US equestrian sports will always be at a disadvantage because of the huge albatross that is showhunters around it’s neck.
It siphons off money, horses. riders, resources etc.[/QUOTE]
So today on the Hunter forum several posters very much in the know said that you need $65k to purchase a winning 3’ Children’s Hunter in today’s market.
You can buy a 4* horse that can teach you to go around Rolex for only a couple thousand more than that. Maybe even for the same price. Not an international horse of course that will do well in the dressage, but a horse that can complete a 4*.
That is just insane to me.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;7748528]
So today on the Hunter forum several posters very much in the know said that you need $65k to purchase a winning 3’ Children’s Hunter in today’s market.
You can buy a 4* horse that can teach you to go around Rolex for only a couple thousand more than that. Maybe even for the same price. [/QUOTE]
You can buy one for less than that.
That’s even more insane. Well, it’s not – I am not complaining that 4* horses are too cheap – but it’s insane that a 3’ kids’ hunter costs as much as a 4* horse. And there are gazillions of 3’ hunters out there, and only a few 4* horses.
Just think what we could be funding if we could channel some of that money into developing horses with some actual talent for something besides loping around outside-diagonal-outside-diagonal. And yes, I’d be happy to channel those kids toward FEI disciplines too.
Look at the pony jumpers in this country vs. the pony jumpers in Europe. Ours are just not anything like theirs. The few kids that do it are often really quite good, but the division rarely even fills.
But the only thing our kids lack is the training, development and opportunity to compete…if we prioritized pony jumpers, our kids would rock them like they do pony hunters. and then they would have that many more years of experience under their belts in the jumper ring. It’s a shame pony jumpers went nowhere.
[QUOTE=JER;7748537]
You can buy one for less than that.[/QUOTE]
I believe Enchantez was listed at $50k after Rolex this year? Not a team horse, but will probably get you closer to a team than the 3’ hunter! :lol:
IMO - too many US kids no longer ride outside of the arena and just across country. This is due to a variety of blockers. Probably starting with “our” current sue happy attitude - someone is hurt then sue everyone, land is damaged then sue the riders, etc. Add in concern about footing and possible lameness, lack of time (both riders/trainers/parents) and anything else you can think of.
The Western riding world is more open and fun for everyone. Personally I believe “we” lose more people to western riding because of their overall attitude than because of the attire. They get out and do a lot of different things. Too many Eventers just event.
Because there were so few CT’s during the 60’s-early 80’s, the team riders had to get their competitive fix at H/J and dressage shows. Many galloped racehorses in the mornings and rode in actual races. Not to mention most of them were also foxhunters. Denny continued his endurance riding, as in 100 milers, even during his heavy eventing years. They had a varied equestrian lifestyle.
Some current people do the same, but most are at horse trials 3 out of 4 weekends at year. They are so busy riding or coaching at every level from BN to Adv they are not able to hone their skills or really condition their horses for 4*.
Just my 2 cents for what it is worth.
The other thing that sets us apart from the European countries and Canada is our medical care or lack of system.
That is a BIG difference.
EN published a very nice analysis of completions, etc., across 4*'s …
http://eventingnation.com/home/was-weg-cross-country-too-tough-too-soft-or-just-right/
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;7748590]
The other thing that sets us apart from the European countries and Canada is our medical care or lack of system.
That is a BIG difference.[/QUOTE]
Do you mean in eventing? How is this relevant in this thread? Sorry, missing a few eventing facts on this one …
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7748341]
There is another huge difference between the US and GB, IMO. In GB, traditionally the eventers have disproportionately come from the aristocrats and the foxhunting class. We’re talking here about the traditional governing class and their children. Old Money. I read the names of the competitors at Burghley and connect them with the uppermost of the upper class. That’s why people like Ollie Townend and the gypsy girl get so much press BECAUSE of their class. You don’t find the aristocrats in the British International show jumpers to the same extent.
The British upper class is very limited in what is appropriate for them to do, and race horses and eventing are acceptable.
Here, many of people in the US upper class who are interested in horses focus on show hunters and jumpers. Eventing just doesn’t get the uber rich or the traditional upper class. There may be a few exceptions, but they are exceptions. Yes, the kids may come from rich families, but they tend not to stay in eventing past 21. The people who make eventing their lives here do have to make a living somehow.
Now I will admit that my opinion is based on the Britain that I knew 40 years ago and much might have changed.[/QUOTE]
I’ve worked on a few showjumping yards in Ireland and that’s exactly how they told it. Which I found funny since its the exact opposite in North America.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7748594]
Do you mean in eventing? How is this relevant in this thread? Sorry, missing a few eventing facts on this one …[/QUOTE]
I think the idea is that having to worry about insurance/medical bills is much more of an issue for US folks than anyone in a country with some kind of government health system. They don’t all work the same way, but I think all of the systems in Canada and the EU at least mean you don’t have to worry about going bankrupt if you have a bad incident and don’t have insurance, or don’t have an insurance plan that has good coverage.
Regardless of personal feelings on if we should have a national system or not, the difference does add stress and expenses for US riders that other people don’t have. (Though I think you’d have to do some careful math to calculate it all out, since depending on where you are in the US, land costs might be much less than in a population dense area like the UK, which might make up for some of the added expense of medical stuff here. Though not the stress of worrying about how you’d pay if something happened, etc.)
[QUOTE=kdow;7748658]
I think the idea is that having to worry about insurance/medical bills is much more of an issue for US folks than anyone in a country with some kind of government health system. They don’t all work the same way, but I think all of the systems in Canada and the EU at least mean you don’t have to worry about going bankrupt if you have a bad incident and don’t have insurance, or don’t have an insurance plan that has good coverage.
Regardless of personal feelings on if we should have a national system or not, the difference does add stress and expenses for US riders that other people don’t have. (Though I think you’d have to do some careful math to calculate it all out, since depending on where you are in the US, land costs might be much less than in a population dense area like the UK, which might make up for some of the added expense of medical stuff here. Though not the stress of worrying about how you’d pay if something happened, etc.)[/QUOTE]
I think blaming the failure of the US eventing team to deliver in tough international competition on the lack of government-provided healthcare is pushing it a bit.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;7748671]
I think blaming the failure of the US eventing team to deliver in tough international competition on the lack of government-provided healthcare is pushing it a bit.[/QUOTE]
Well, yes. Like I said, I suspect on a cost/expenses level it might all balance out because of differences in other expenses like land costs and so on that also go into running a business of being a professional rider. (Land, gas, feed, living expenses, there are a lot of different elements that likely vary considerably from place to place anyway. Health care costs are a single part of that.)
In theory you might be able to make the argument that the health care situation in the US makes it less likely for some people to do what it takes to become a pro due to concerns about the possible expense of an accident, etc. but I’m not sure if that would hold water. Eventers are kind of by nature not the most sensible people on the planet in terms of risk taking - if you’re willing to take the risk of jumping over very large solid jumps at speed I’m not sure how much you’re going to go “but no, I am not going to do that because health care!” Particularly at those ages when humans tend to feel a bit immortal anyway. (I.e. Late teens and twenties, which is the ages when you’d likely be seeing people deciding to really throw themselves into trying to make a go of it, before they get too tied down by other responsibilities like family.)
I was just commenting on what I thought the idea was, not how applicable it seems. Certainly when I went back to college recently none of my fellow students seemed that concerned about health care options, it just wasn’t on their radar. And that was in an industry where employer provided health insurance is also rare - I don’t particularly see why horse folks of that age would be much different in that area. Have we ever had an “I want to be a horse pro but I can’t because health insurance!” thread on COTH? (I think I’ve seen some on if people have insurance or not, and what kind of plans and so on, but if I remember right there weren’t many people saying they didn’t do horse stuff because they lacked insurance. Just people who said they knew they were taking a bit of a risk riding and hoping they didn’t need major medical care for anything.)
Posted by OverandOnward:
[QUOTE]Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony:
The other thing that sets us apart from the European countries and Canada is our medical care or lack of system.
That is a BIG difference.
Do you mean in eventing? How is this relevant in this thread? Sorry, missing a few eventing facts on this one …[/QUOTE]
I mean for anything, but even more so for horse related sports where people can get injured more easily than if they stay indoors and play video games.
It just makes it easier for anyone who works around horses, in case there is an injury of any kind, that they can get immediate care and not lose everything they may own.
Grooms, exercise riders, young trainers that aren’t from well to do families …
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