Curb bits - when, how, why?

The other thread about WD-legal bits got me wondering…

Do you ride in a curb bit? Why?

When did you move up from a snaffle to a curb?

What kind of curb do you use?

Do western curb bits have curb chains?

How did you introduce your horse to it?

Just curious, as I have never ridden in a curb myself and I have seen a lot of people riding in a curb whose skill set/abilities seem more suited to riding in a snaffle (heavy with the hand or riding in the curb in such a way as to piss off their horses). It seems to be one of “those things” that some people who ride western do, but I’m not sure why…

For me, riding in a curb is a step up in training. But I know what you mean - I’ve seen a whole lotta people riding in a curb that should still be in a snaffle. Whether it’s the horse or the rider, it’s not pretty.

The change to a curb wasn’t much of a transition for my boys. I ride both English and western, and they went very well in a kimberwicke. I like a Myler curb to introduce the port. As much as I fussed and fretted about it, it was a complete non-event. I have several curbs I keep handy. Regular correction, the Myler, square port correction (for some reason, they both love it), solid California pleasure, a super low port solid bit.

Yes, they do have curb chains or curb straps. And you don’t have to stay in the curb full time. I occasionally go back to the snaffle and most people I ride with do as well.

The other thing, depending on what people are showing, after a certain age, horses are required to be in a shanked bit (breed shows, for example).

If you are showing, curb bit is required after horse is 5yrs. They have passed the “young horse” ages, should be working as a trained horse, accepting in his curb bit. Read the Rules though, always some exceptions. Most of these well-trained Western horses have NO rein contact for their show specialty, working off legs, seat, neck reining. So heavy hands should not be an issue, except maybe when stopping if the curb strap/chain comes into play.

I personally think Snaffle bits are vastly over-rated in horse training. All the English Riders brag up “my horse goes in a snaffle” but then you SEE the mouthpieces and I gasp! They are horrendous, and I can see why the horse won’t go thru their hands or even move forward well!! Certainly the higher level folks are NOT riding in smooth 2-3 piece ring snaffle mouthpieces. There is no way I would use the variety of mouthpieces shown and legal, on anything I own. Nothing that I would call kind, about them. They are sharp, bite, work in nutcracker fashion hitting the upper palate, and rider is ALWAYS in contact with the mouth, horse never gets any relief unless his chin is on his chest, which is a very bad location to keep control with.

I consider snaffles a step in training, horse is always expected to continue on into a curb bit as a “trained” horse for my uses. I might ride in a ring snaffle, smooth mouth, for a class showing, but otherwise his working, showing is done in curb bits. Horse is trained to work in light contact with me all the time. We “talk” with the reins, so he hunts the bit if reins are really long, yet gathers up, if reins are shortened, not hanging on my hands.

There are as many kinds of curb bits and mouthpieces as there are ring snaffles to buy. Back to training, use of hands, in how kindly the horse mouth gets treated wearing a curb bit. The nasty looking Spade bits that folks have fits about, take a TRAINED horse and rider to work well. Horse has usually been in a LONG training program to understand the requests of rider, could be ridden in thread reins and respond as needed. Rider barely lifts reins, horse is doing whatever he is asked, curb strap never comes into play. But few folks want to put in the 5yrs needed to reach that skill level in training horse. Horse has a mouth of silk, dances under his skilled rider.

You can use a leather curb strap or a chain curb strap if you like, depends on what the horse goes best in, with your Western Curb bit. You should read up on how the bits work, there are books available that explain ratio of reach above the mouthpiece and shanks below the mouthpiece. How and why certain shank designs were developed, work or don’t work in certain riding disciplines. Then you get into the mouthpiece designs, why and how they affect the horse mouth. Then you start choosing bits to use.

With Western bits, you need to be careful to get the mouth wide enough. For some reason they think most horses take a 5" bit, so often there is no other size available. Yet none of my Western bred horses EVER wore a 5" bit, just the pony. My old Western horses were not big at 14.2 or 3H, but even the Arab cross wore a 5 1/2" wide bit. I did a lot of hunting to find suitable bits in the wider 5 1/2" size I needed. None of mine have ever needed any special mouthpieces. They all worked just fine in basic curb bits with medium port, thicker mouthpiece, loose swivel sides.

If you are not subject to Show Rules, certainly you don’t need to use a curb bit to go Trail Riding or anything you want to do riding in a Western saddle. Curb Bits are Traditional with Western Riding, so the Shows expect to see them in their classes on older horses.

I trail ride, and many people ride in a curb, although sometimes it’s because they just use the bit that the previous owner used. We ride DH’s horse in a Myler curb, the one she came with. I used a snaffle on her when I took lessons with her, and have used it on trail rides, but she is fine in her curb, so why fix what isn’t broken?

Unfortunately, many times it’s a security blanket. Many of these trail horses have big holes in their training, and people feel more comfortable with a little extra stopping power. Don’t argue the logic with me, I know. This is why I opted to adopt a green horse and work with trainers, take lessons, and fumble through the process myself, as opposed to purchasing a piece of Swiss cheese more set in its ways.

I will eventually ride my mare in a curb, just as part of her training process. I’m in no hurry, and it’s very possible I will never regularly ride her in anything other than a snaffle. Some of it depends on what I might end up doing with her in the future, and if it can be done better in a snaffle or curb. It will also depend on her preference, if she has one.

I currently have a Myler curb. The shanks swivel, there is a curb chain/strap ( this is an important part of a curb bit action). My mare will be introduced to it when my trainer and I feel like she is ready. Basically, when she is doing everything I want in a snaffle, and doing it well. I will see what the trainer thinks as far as what type of curb, but I was planning on just using my Myler. If mare shows that she hates it, then I will have to try something else.

>Do you ride in a curb bit? Why?

Sometimes (spade). The horse I have isn’t really to go straight up the bridle, and I use the two rein to check in once in a while to see how he’s going. Spades don’t hide anything, so any issues tend to be amplified.

>When did you move up from a snaffle to a curb?

When the horse is ready.

Saying that a horse should be in a full bridle by X years old is rediculous. That’s like saying all 5 year old kids should ride a bike to school. Some aren’t coordinated enough, some aren’t ready etc.

>What kind of curb do you use?

Full Spanish spade, Bruce Haener design.

>Do western curb bits have curb chains?

Some do. Signal bits should have wide leather curb straps.

>How did you introduce your horse to it?

Slowly. Bit them in situations where you can monitor at first (ie, for 5 mins when tacking up etc).

From a riding perspective, use the two rein to transition. Not doing so is teaching a kid to swim by dumping them in the deep end. Functional, but not the easiest on all parties.

[QUOTE=cloudy18;8610700]
Unfortunately, many times it’s a security blanket. Many of these trail horses have big holes in their training, and people feel more comfortable with a little extra stopping power. Don’t argue the logic with me, I know. [/QUOTE]

Hopefully this is visible, love this photo:
https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12592523_1129726070395563_8867998988653226617_n.jpg?oh=6024200ecdd2d27ebda93bba34a4869c&oe=57BCE6A7

I may get flack for this, because we start horses as 2 year olds, but if started at two, they should be going in a curb at 3, and showing in a curb at 4.

That said, I have a 15yo cutting horse and I still practice with him in the snaffle to go back to basics.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8610451]
Do you ride in a curb bit? Why?[/QUOTE]

When I show I definitely ride in a curb since my horses are over 6 and in most shows they have to be in a curb. Some shows (like obstacles races) don’t have the curb requirement for aged horses.

Outside of the show pen, it depends what I am doing what I ride in - sometimes it’s schooling in their show bit, sometimes schooling in another bit (curb OR snaffle) or hackamore/two rein, trail riding in what ever …

For my 1/2 Arab mare, who I was riding WAY before I started showing and I started showing with her, she was put into a curb at age 7.

For my AQHA, I’ve had her since she was 2 and we did the progression for cowhorse - snaffle to hackamore to two rein to curb. She is 7 this year and this is the first year she is only in the curb. I did ride her a few times in a curb at arena shows last year since they would not let me ride in the two rein. Didn’t make much difference to her, LOL - we still got reserve!

All my bits are Arena Classic bits from Jeremiah Watt. My trainer gets a discount and helps me choose my bits.

I have a loose shank with a billy allen (#4 in link) mouth; cheek piece here

I also have a three piece mouth loose shank with this cheek peice although I don’t use it as much (I like it though!).

My Arab mare’s curb is a fixed shank with a bar like in this link mona lisa mouth (#19) (medium port with roller & hood) cheek piece here For cowhorse, the bits have to be fixed shank and the mouth piece has to have a roller.

My AQHA mare has a fix shank with chains like in this link frog mouth w/roller (#11). Cheek piece here.

Yes. However, in cowhorse curb chains are prohibited. You are only allowed to use leather curb straps without anything but leather touching the horse. So no rawhide accents, no metal from a buckle; only leather can touch the horse. So all my curb bits have leather curb straps not chains.

With my Arab mare, we had been riding in the Billy Allen bit, but I was still doing direct reining. When I decided to show, I had to ride one handed, so we just did lots of slow work. It was about 2 years until we moved up to the fix shank bit (since it was required for cowhorse) and by then she was more than read to move up.

As indicated above, my AQHA mare went through the progression from snaffle-hackamore-two rein-curb. By the time we were at the end of her two rein year, she was ready to go straight to the curb. I hated the two rein - looks cool, but it’s hard when you are not that adept at riding with two reins, LOL. My mare actually liked it! Still it did its job of providing my mare with the foundation to go straight to the curb.

[QUOTE=goodhors;8610672]
If you are showing, curb bit is required after horse is 5yrs. They have passed the “young horse” ages, should be working as a trained horse, accepting in his curb bit. Read the Rules though, always some exceptions. Most of these well-trained Western horses have NO rein contact for their show specialty, working off legs, seat, neck reining. So heavy hands should not be an issue, except maybe when stopping if the curb strap/chain comes into play.

I personally think Snaffle bits are vastly over-rated in horse training. All the English Riders brag up “my horse goes in a snaffle” but then you SEE the mouthpieces and I gasp! They are horrendous, and I can see why the horse won’t go thru their hands or even move forward well!! Certainly the higher level folks are NOT riding in smooth 2-3 piece ring snaffle mouthpieces. There is no way I would use the variety of mouthpieces shown and legal, on anything I own. Nothing that I would call kind, about them. They are sharp, bite, work in nutcracker fashion hitting the upper palate, and rider is ALWAYS in contact with the mouth, horse never gets any relief unless his chin is on his chest, which is a very bad location to keep control with.

I consider snaffles a step in training, horse is always expected to continue on into a curb bit as a “trained” horse for my uses. I might ride in a ring snaffle, smooth mouth, for a class showing, but otherwise his working, showing is done in curb bits. Horse is trained to work in light contact with me all the time. We “talk” with the reins, so he hunts the bit if reins are really long, yet gathers up, if reins are shortened, not hanging on my hands.

There are as many kinds of curb bits and mouthpieces as there are ring snaffles to buy. Back to training, use of hands, in how kindly the horse mouth gets treated wearing a curb bit. The nasty looking Spade bits that folks have fits about, take a TRAINED horse and rider to work well. Horse has usually been in a LONG training program to understand the requests of rider, could be ridden in thread reins and respond as needed. Rider barely lifts reins, horse is doing whatever he is asked, curb strap never comes into play. But few folks want to put in the 5yrs needed to reach that skill level in training horse. Horse has a mouth of silk, dances under his skilled rider.

You can use a leather curb strap or a chain curb strap if you like, depends on what the horse goes best in, with your Western Curb bit. You should read up on how the bits work, there are books available that explain ratio of reach above the mouthpiece and shanks below the mouthpiece. How and why certain shank designs were developed, work or don’t work in certain riding disciplines. Then you get into the mouthpiece designs, why and how they affect the horse mouth. Then you start choosing bits to use.

With Western bits, you need to be careful to get the mouth wide enough. For some reason they think most horses take a 5" bit, so often there is no other size available. Yet none of my Western bred horses EVER wore a 5" bit, just the pony. My old Western horses were not big at 14.2 or 3H, but even the Arab cross wore a 5 1/2" wide bit. I did a lot of hunting to find suitable bits in the wider 5 1/2" size I needed. None of mine have ever needed any special mouthpieces. They all worked just fine in basic curb bits with medium port, thicker mouthpiece, loose swivel sides.

If you are not subject to Show Rules, certainly you don’t need to use a curb bit to go Trail Riding or anything you want to do riding in a Western saddle. Curb Bits are Traditional with Western Riding, so the Shows expect to see them in their classes on older horses.[/QUOTE]

This is probably the best breakdown of all the “why’s” that I’ve seen! Very comprehensive. It’s been tricky to wrap my mind around the shank/curb bits, coming over to Western Dressage after riding hunters primarily. Thanks for the knowledge!

[QUOTE=goodhors;8610672]

I personally think Snaffle bits are vastly over-rated in horse training. All the English Riders brag up “my horse goes in a snaffle” but then you SEE the mouthpieces and I gasp! They are horrendous, and I can see why the horse won’t go thru their hands or even move forward well!! Certainly the higher level folks are NOT riding in smooth 2-3 piece ring snaffle mouthpieces. There is no way I would use the variety of mouthpieces shown and legal, on anything I own. Nothing that I would call kind, about them. They are sharp, bite, work in nutcracker fashion hitting the upper palate, and rider is ALWAYS in contact with the mouth, horse never gets any relief unless his chin is on his chest, which is a very bad location to keep control with.[/QUOTE]

You are painting with a very broad and inaccurate brush there. What you have said about snaffles and English riders is the equivalent of an English rider saying, “All those western people ride in huge curb bits with high ports and extremely long shanks with curb chains done up so tight you can’t even get a stalk of hay in between the chain and the horse’s chin. And then they put really tight tie downs on their horses so that the horse can’t raise its head up. Those poor horses are in such pain all the time with their mouths gaping open from the riders jerking on the reins. It’s a wonder those poor horses don’t all have broken jaws.”

And, as far as the “nutcracker effect,” people say that all the time, but it does not appear to be true. Dr. Hilary Clayton, at Michigan State, did some fantastic radiographic studies looking at the movement of bits inside a live horse’s mouth, both with and without rein pressure. She reported that with rein pressure, the center of the single jointed snaffle rolled over the tongue toward the rear and the joint moved away from the palate due to the indentation of the tongue.

" It seems to be one of “those things” that some people who ride western do, but I’m not sure why…"

It doesn’t matter what kind of bit you have in the horses mouth if the rider does not have soft educated hands. Hey, let’s forbid anyone other than those with perfect hands from riding! :rolleyes:

I’m going to take the time to mentally thank all the horses that put up with me and instructors who tried to help me when I was learning to ride. Some people I guess were born perfect riders and have nothing better to do than try to understand “why” others are not so good. Does it ever occur to anyone that some people ride for fun???

[QUOTE=aktill;8610828]
Hopefully this is visible, love this photo:
https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12592523_1129726070395563_8867998988653226617_n.jpg?oh=6024200ecdd2d27ebda93bba34a4869c&oe=57BCE6A7[/QUOTE]

A friend just told me about that quote. Love it!!

I ride with a curb because that’s how my horse came. It’s a very low port bit most commonly called a grazing bit. Shanks are medium length.

If I use a snaffle on a Morgan, I use a French link. Morgans have very low/flat palettes which make a single jointed snaffle much too “pokey”.

[QUOTE=aktill;8610828]
Hopefully this is visible, love this photo:
https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12592523_1129726070395563_8867998988653226617_n.jpg?oh=6024200ecdd2d27ebda93bba34a4869c&oe=57BCE6A7[/QUOTE]

Your first comment.

Whenever I hear that someone has a Haener, I wonder what they do for a living to be able to afford one! But probably the nicest new spades out there.

As to the second comment, the photo

I have seen that alot lately. I think its terrible. I like Buck, but some of the stuff he does that people go all ooh and aah over, I just think is usually over bent. Like that photo. Just my opinion.

I blame Richard Caldwell. After learning from him for a couple of years and getting shown his collection, it was hard to get too excited about any other maker. Definitely not the cheapest option out there, but I don’t regret buying one (it’s an investment right…right?).

I reacted to the quote rather than to the photo, but it doesn’t get me too worked up. Buck does more bending than I would nowadays, but it works for him. Makes for a different look to the finished horse, though, I’ll give you that.

[QUOTE=aktill;8610828]
Hopefully this is visible, love this photo:
https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12592523_1129726070395563_8867998988653226617_n.jpg?oh=6024200ecdd2d27ebda93bba34a4869c&oe=57BCE6A7[/QUOTE]

Love the photo (Reuben?) because I love to see how Buck sits on a horse - so natural and easy. And the quote is especially good. :lol:

kewpalace, you have quite a bit collection! May I ask what you do with your horses?

Why a fixed shank vs. swivel - what is the difference other than any showing rules? (Did I get that terminology right?)

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8611399]
" It seems to be one of “those things” that some people who ride western do, but I’m not sure why…"

It doesn’t matter what kind of bit you have in the horses mouth if the rider does not have soft educated hands. Hey, let’s forbid anyone other than those with perfect hands from riding! :rolleyes:

I’m going to take the time to mentally thank all the horses that put up with me and instructors who tried to help me when I was learning to ride. Some people I guess were born perfect riders and have nothing better to do than try to understand “why” others are not so good. Does it ever occur to anyone that some people ride for fun???[/QUOTE]

Doesn’t everyone ride for fun? :confused:

I’m sensing a little anger and defensiveness in your post when no insult was intended by me. Perhaps you did not understand what I was asking. I wasn’t saying “I only see bad riding in western people and nobody knows how to ride.” I was saying I only see curb bits (save for pelhams in the english world) on western horses - meaning I only see straight up curb bits on western horses, not what I consider a “combo” bit (for lack of better explanation) like a kimberwicke or pelham. In dressage, one only sees curb bits when a horse is ridden in the double bridle, and I’ve never seen an english rider in a curb exclusively, hence my questions. When I refer to “one of those things” I don’t mean that bad riding is one of those things I see only western people do, it means I see riding in a curb as one of those things I only see western people do.

My experience with seeing people riding western (and I can’t even say that they are western riders per se, just that they ride in western tack) is mostly either in clinics our out on the trails. So people who go to clinics generally go because they are trying to work out some problems, so of course one might see unhappy horses there. One clinician, bless him, really got on someone about riding her horse with two hands and contact on the curb. He said he would either put her in a snaffle or teach her how to properly ride with her curb bit. She wanted to learn, so he was on her the whole time about her technique with the curb. That was brave on her part and good learning for her and everyone watching.

OTOH, I’ve seen clinicians teach someone who is afraid of their horse who is rightly pissed off because the rider has big spurs and a big curb but really needs some basic riding lessons, and the clinician didn’t address that root issue (so it was someone I would not go back to or recommend).

In any event, I was trying to understand why - and yes, in the western world, because this is the western forum - people ride in curb bits. No snark intended - I’m only interested in learning and understanding.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8612272]
kewpalace, you have quite a bit collection![/QUOTE]

Yea, I never really thought I had so many bits :eek: as I’ve never put them all down on paper at one time, LOL.

With my Arab mare (she is 17 now), I started out doing marathon trail rides with a eye to do endurance (we never got there), started doing arena shows (I was NOT a fan of those, LOL), then switched to ranch horse versatility shows (we both LOVED those), dabbled some in trail trials and obstacle races, and ended up in reined cowhorse. We did reined cowhorse for 5-6 years (boxing) and we did some of the reining classes there (cuz I suck at reining and needed practice in that and with my show nerves). My Arab mare is not really built to do it, but darn it all, she loved it and we learned together and ended doing pretty well. She got burned out on showing so I gave her two years off while I concentrated on my AQHA filly (now mare). Last year My Arab mare and I did a couple of local trail clinics and it was clear she was ready to get out and do again, so I’ll take her to some trail/obstacles shows for fun.

My AQHA mare is cow horse bred, but along with reined cowhorse shows, we have also done trail trials, arena shows, play days and ranch horse versatility shows. I got her at 2 (she already had been started and had about 40 rides on her); she is 7 now.

Both my horses were professionally started, but the rest of the training I have done with major help from trainers. It has made for alot of bumps and giggles along the way and makes it hard to compete at times against horses that are completely finished by a pro trainer, but I like the process and learn alot (still learning alot) and it’s gratifying when we do well or show marked improvement. :smiley:

We call the “swivel” shank a loose shank. No difference just what we are used to calling it. “Swivel” is a fine term.

This article explains it better than I could:

Swivel shank bits allow the shank portion to rotate and are a good choice for a young horse moving up from a snaffle. The swivel shank still allows use of two hands enhancing communication with each side of the horse’s mouth. The movement of the shank also allows for a pre-signal as the rider lifts the rein.As the rider moves the rein, the shank rotates and signals the horse before actual contact is made. A fixed shank bit is a one-handed bit and is for the more advanced horse. This bit communicates to both sides of the horse’s mouth whenever it is activated; therefore, riding two-handed serves no purpose. Shanks come in a variety of lengths and angles. The longer the shank, the more leverage is applied with rein contact. A longer shank bit should be used with lighter contact and only on a more advanced horse and by a more experienced rider. A straight or more vertical shank bit (Figure 4)encourages the horse to maintain a more vertical headset and gives less of a pre-signal before the rein engages. A more angled shank (Figure 5) allows fora pre-signal and permits the horse to more ideally carry its nose in front of vertical.

The funny thing is that there isn’t anything you can’t do with a snaffle or hackamore that you have to use a curb bit for. In a lot of ways, it’s harder to ride in a curb because there’s no lateral element (or shouldn’t be, in a leverage bit).

Instead, people are often going by arbitrary show rules, or want to fake competence, or can’t stop their horse without inflicting pain.

Very few go to curbs because they’re looking for refinement.

A lot of good hands I know think nothing of bringing out two-rein or hackamore when things are going to get fast (ie feedlot etc) because they know they’ll likely not be able to stay clean with just a bridle bit (or risk tearing up good gear). Even if they don’t, it’s not viewed as “failing” go “go back” a step.

The way you’d hear other people talk, the world would end if they had to give up their curbs. That’s the reason WD allows (or allowed) curbs at training levels. Somehow the world was going to end if they didn’t. IMHO, those are the people who fail out of snaffles into curbs.