This is the argument against broken mouth bits (largely all the same issues with mechanics):
http://www.markrashid.com/docs/tomthumb.pdf
People tried to eliminate the two rein with bits that combined elements of snaffles and curbs, but it’s not that simple.
Here are the rules, OP, only a google away.
http://services2.aqha.com/iphonedev/www/sections/sectionIV/rules/433-463/443.html
If you are going to ride under AQHA rules, then you need to ride with a legal bit wrt the horse’s age and your class.
There is a progression in training from snaffle to bosal to curb, so that once you are only allowed to ride in a curb, halfbreed or spade bit, your horse is trained to respond to the cues correctly and you are riding more off your seat and leg than anything else. The correctly trained horse will respond to slight movements of your hands, which should stay in a small box just in front of your saddle. A beautiful example is the 2015 World Sr Trail Champ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZpo00hP2aA
Why do people who are recreational riders ride with a curb bit? I don’t know. You’d have to ask each individual rider instead of painting a broad group with one brush. I see plenty of meat handed two handed riders hauling on their horse’s mouths because the horses are not well trained.
I do trail ride sometimes and much prefer a curb bit in one hand. I do judged rides and it’s much easier to complete the obstacles on a horse that rides off the seat and legs, and neck reins. The leverage of the curb bit allows you to communicate with your hands with a drape in the reins - you don’t need direct contact.
In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZpo00hP2aA
That horse is a lovely boy, but the rein length is only something you could get away with in a pen where NOTHING happens. That much drape is asking for a stick (or cow…seen that) to get jammed in there. If he had to respond to something unexpected he’d be reeling in rein for a long time before the bit did much of anything. That said, the horse is responding to everything on drape.
The lope also makes me sad.
Interesting video, but pretty much show condition appropriate only.
Learning a great deal on this thread. Thanks all!!
A bit of a diversion here:
Regarding WD, perhaps part of the reason curbs are allowed in the lower levels (with two hands, even) is because, as a brand new discipline, they want to encourage older horse/rider pairs to try it out - horses that may have been in a curb for many years.
At our (schooling) shows here in Ocala, the two biggest problems I see in the WD classes are lack of contact and lack of forward. In fact, I was told by a breed show competitor that it was bad for her horses to carry their heads above the wither.
Carry on with the bit discussion!
[QUOTE=aktill;8612140]
I blame Richard Caldwell. After learning from him for a couple of years and getting shown his collection, it was hard to get too excited about any other maker. Definitely not the cheapest option out there, but I don’t regret buying one (it’s an investment right…right?).
I reacted to the quote rather than to the photo, but it doesn’t get me too worked up. Buck does more bending than I would nowadays, but it works for him. Makes for a different look to the finished horse, though, I’ll give you that.[/QUOTE]
Is not the bending, is the resisting horse, not the fluid, soft way the horse should have been moving there.
Granted, that is just one split second, the horse may have softened right away and gave, the resistance may have been because the horse was surprised or learning something new and got stuck, etc.
But, yes, that was a forced, stiff looking horse there.
Didn’t want to say anything, because I know how it would have been received.
It is about educating our eye, then trying to get the horses to move the best we may, every time, every second, although we won’t always get that.
IMHO, while a great many riders know how to properly use a curb bit
the under educated folk I see misusing the curb bit are doing so
in the same fashion, and for the same reason
that under educated dog owners misuse pinch collars.
[QUOTE=aktill;8612523]
In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZpo00hP2aA
That horse is a lovely boy, but the rein length is only something you could get away with in a pen where NOTHING happens. That much drape is asking for a stick (or cow…seen that) to get jammed in there. If he had to respond to something unexpected he’d be reeling in rein for a long time before the bit did much of anything. That said, the horse is responding to everything on drape.
The lope also makes me sad.
Interesting video, but pretty much show condition appropriate only.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it’s show conditions, but I was not able to find a trail riding video with that quality horsemanship. The point was to demonstrate the movement of the hands and the action of the curb bit wrt controlling the horse. I’m thinking that you did not mean to insinuate that when something unexpected happens, you snatch at the reins. We do lots of “unexpected” at home, so when “unexpected” happens on the trail, there is not a big response to control. Speaking of which, my horses are off during the winter, and when I start them back up, they are in snaffles for the first month until I feel that all the winter sillies are gone, and they are soft and flexible. Then we move to the curb - when I am confident that there won’t be a reason to have to pick up direct contact. I use the curb when my horses are at a certain point in their composure and responsiveness. I do not use a curb because I need to control misbehavior - that is best done with a snaffle.
So when I look at the Myler western bit page, I see some curb bits in the top section of the page: https://www.toklat.com/Products/Brand/Myler/95/Western
Of those, it looks like only one is a solid mouthpiece with non-swivel shanks, is that correct? aktill, of all those bits, would you classify most of them as Tom Thumb, or is that something very specific (wish Mark’s article had a photo).?
Palm Beach, what kind of curb bit(s) do you use? For “finished horses” like the one in that video, or your own, PB, is the goal to go in a spade bit, or is that more of a working horse or Californio thing?
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8614251]
So when I look at the Myler western bit page, I see some curb bits in the top section of the page: https://www.toklat.com/Products/Brand/Myler/95/Western
Of those, it looks like only one is a solid mouthpiece with non-swivel shanks, is that correct? aktill, of all those bits, would you classify most of them as Tom Thumb, or is that something very specific (wish Mark’s article had a photo).?[/QUOTE]
I can’t speak for Mark, but I’d personally apply it to anything with a snaffle mouthpiece and leverage shanks.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8613626]
Yes, it’s show conditions, but I was not able to find a trail riding video with that quality horsemanship. The point was to demonstrate the movement of the hands and the action of the curb bit wrt controlling the horse.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I totally get that. I was mainly just pointing out that some of the concepts that win points in the show ring wouldn’t be appropriate taken out of the ring. They’re exaggerating for effect to prove that they’re not doing much reining, but I personally feel it looks hokey (why not just go bit less at a certain point?)
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8613626]
I’m thinking that you did not mean to insinuate that when something unexpected happens, you snatch at the reins. We do lots of “unexpected” at home, so when “unexpected” happens on the trail, there is not a big response to control. Speaking of which, my horses are off during the winter, and when I start them back up, they are in snaffles for the first month until I feel that all the winter sillies are gone, and they are soft and flexible. Then we move to the curb - when I am confident that there won’t be a reason to have to pick up direct contact. I use the curb when my horses are at a certain point in their composure and responsiveness. I do not use a curb because I need to control misbehavior - that is best done with a snaffle.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t insinuating anything of the sort, nope. I do ride on a rein that’s functionally short enough to have access to the curb strap on my bit without moving my hand outside of a box that’s a few inches wider than my saddle horn, however. I don’t believe in riding these bits on “contact” WD style, but I want to have full access to the full range of motion on the bit.
The gentleman in the ring would have to reel in a foot or two or rein to touch the curb strap on his bit. That’s fine if your horse will never have a different opinion from you, but mine have been known to have their own opinion and thoughts once in a while lol
The other reason I like having a functionally short rein is that a spade isn’t an on/off bit like a tongue relief high port curb would be. Nothing wrong with that, but just a personal choice.
Another thing about a spade bit that is different from say, a simple curb with leather split reins, is that there is a lot of weight associated with a good spade, combined with the romel reins and chains. The bits are heavy compared to most. So even with a draped rein, the horse is on a sort of contact, carrying and balancing the weight. So the lightness you feel the horse comes to action feeling the change of the weight or balance from just picking up or jiggling the reins… The action of your hand is sort of amplified.
Some people call that signal. But of course, you can be a hack in a spade as well as any other bit. And an artist with anything, if you are an artist!
With a tall spade, if you really were to pull on it, it can be nullified by the curb strap coming hard against the jaw bone underneath, and the tall spoon resting against the hard pallet, and a horse can hold one there, if he’s a mind to. and you will have nothing. A horse can run off in a spade almost easier than any other bit because of that. So it doesn’t give one the mechanical advantage or severity many people might assume it does. It is more about a lot to hold and feel in their mouth, and mostly about the tongue.
In other words, the spade is a poor leverage bit in that way. Even though it is still technically a lever.
Also, many don’t realize that with leverage in any kind of curb, it isn’t just the strap, or the port, but the leverage is pulling down on the tongue towards the bars. That is what a horse feels is a pull.
Best way to really tell what a bit is doing, hold the bridle by the cheek pieces in one hand, the bit four fingers as the horse’s mouth curling from above and around the mouth piece.
Then have someone use the reins from behind you and watch how the bit works, any bit, snaffle or curb, any type mouthpiece, any kind of shanks, any kind of loose or one piece sides to mouthpiece.
Do that with many different bits, try to see how any movement or pull of the reins works that bit, then be surprised horses even know what we want by those many times very confusing signals.
Yes, try that with a spade also and come back tell us how that worked, for those that think they know how those work.
[QUOTE=Bluey;8614580]
Best way to really tell what a bit is doing, hold the bridle by the cheek pieces in one hand, the bit four fingers as the horse’s mouth curling from above and around the mouth piece.
Then have someone use the reins from behind you and watch how the bit works, any bit, snaffle or curb, any type mouthpiece, any kind of shanks, any kind of loose or one piece sides to mouthpiece.
Do that with many different bits, try to see how any movement or pull of the reins works that bit, then be surprised horses even know what we want by those many times very confusing signals.
Yes, try that with a spade also and come back tell us how that worked, for those that think they know how those work.[/QUOTE]
Are you addressing me? I know, but I wouldn’t want to spoil it!
[QUOTE=Wirt;8614681]
Are you addressing me? I know, but I wouldn’t want to spoil it![/QUOTE]
Everyone.
When we taught beginners, we first spent time teaching them on the ground, all about bridles and saddles and the different parts of those and about horses.
Then we had them hold the bridle and a snaffle so they realized how their hands on the end of the reins were going to affect the horse’s mouth.
Then we practiced getting on a barrel with a saddle, to do it correctly and sit softly down.
We thought that preparation before riding protected and saved our school horses from some basic learning mistakes that could happen at the cost of some horse’s discomfort.
I think everyone should try to feel how bits work.
[QUOTE=lorilu;8613197]
Learning a great deal on this thread. Thanks all!!
A bit of a diversion here:
Regarding WD, perhaps part of the reason curbs are allowed in the lower levels (with two hands, even) is because, as a brand new discipline, they want to encourage older horse/rider pairs to try it out - horses that may have been in a curb for many years.
At our (schooling) shows here in Ocala, the two biggest problems I see in the WD classes are lack of contact and lack of forward. In fact, I was told by a breed show competitor that it was bad for her horses to carry their heads above the wither.
Carry on with the bit discussion![/QUOTE]
Sidebar;
lorilu, which club in Ocala includes WD classes in their schooling shows? We love our local GMO, NFDA, but we were talking about maybe doing a “field trip” schooling show elsewhere in the Fall. Do tell, would love to pass the info along!
[QUOTE=Bluey;8614580]
Best way to really tell what a bit is doing, hold the bridle by the cheek pieces in one hand, the bit four fingers as the horse’s mouth curling from above and around the mouth piece.[/QUOTE]
The best way to know what a bit is doing in a horse’s mouth is to go look at radiographs taken of real horses, with bits in their mouths, when pressure is applied to the reins. As I mentioned above, Dr. Hilary Clayton has published some. And in my AQHA update e-mail the other day, they linked to a story that in turn linked to what sounds like similar work with “western” bits. I haven’t looked at it yet, so can’t say for sure what it was.
Based on what I’ve seen of Dr. Clayton’s work, you may be surprised at what you see. Horses’ mouths are moving systems with multiple parts (not to mention the changes associated with head carriage) and may not behave as you would predict.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8615088]
The best way to know what a bit is doing in a horse’s mouth is to go look at radiographs taken of real horses, with bits in their mouths, when pressure is applied to the reins. As I mentioned above, Dr. Hilary Clayton has published some. And in my AQHA update e-mail the other day, they linked to a story that in turn linked to what sounds like similar work with “western” bits. I haven’t looked at it yet, so can’t say for sure what it was.
Based on what I’ve seen of Dr. Clayton’s work, you may be surprised at what you see. Horses’ mouths are moving systems with multiple parts (not to mention the changes associated with head carriage) and may not behave as you would predict.[/QUOTE]
The AQHA Journal had some such stories with x-rays showing what bits do and don’t do, maybe 15-20 years ago?
Yes, it is surprising what you see when you look yourself and when you see x-rays and when you do more than put a bit in a horse’s mouth and assume.
[QUOTE=Chrissy;8614761]
Sidebar;
lorilu, which club in Ocala includes WD classes in their schooling shows? We love our local GMO, NFDA, but we were talking about maybe doing a “field trip” schooling show elsewhere in the Fall. Do tell, would love to pass the info along![/QUOTE]
Chrissy, STRIDE does. We had big classes today in WD! As a matter of fact, we ALSO are qualifying classes for NFDA’s championship shows!!
Our next show is the last Sunday of September, then last Sunday of October - at the Horse Park. Those are our last shows for the year.
Loretta
[QUOTE=aktill;8612387]
This is the argument against broken mouth bits (largely all the same issues with mechanics):
http://www.markrashid.com/docs/tomthumb.pdf
People tried to eliminate the two rein with bits that combined elements of snaffles and curbs, but it’s not that simple.[/QUOTE]
I agree with Mark Rashid about a tom thumb for all the reason he mentions, or Argentine or long shank “snaffles”
I do not understand those rocking s snaffles he sells.
I have read before his explanation of how a snaffle works, and he always says the work by pulling on one rein, and putting pressure on the other side of the mouth. This surprises me he would only see it working this way. I can see it if all you are doing is plow reining your horse around. He doesn’t address the fact that the snaffle can work directly on the corner of the mouth on the same side, if you lift on that side instead of pull. And also he doesn’t the mention the fact that you can also stabilize he snaffle with the outside rein, in which case the horse will respond to the feel on the inside corner of the mouth. before the outside. I don’t see a need for his new snaffles.
Also, “transitional bits” are a fairly new thing in western riding, especially in California, where the hackamore to two rein to spade was developed. Because the transition part was the two rein. There wasn’t a snaffle involved, in most cases. There was the hackamore, then the spade. There wasn’t an “in between” bit at all. Although various types of spade. In that system, there just wasn’t a need for a transition bit. Some people will swear by a new bit they put in their horses mouth. 'I changed bits, and my horse felt so much better" But many times that’s because the horse has a new fresh feel in his mouth. Ask that same rider how his horse feels a couple weeks later, and most of the time, they are back to the same complaints as before, and are then looking for the next special new Myler bit that promises to fix the problem. And again, they feel so much better, for a while.
I think they are focusing at the wrong end of the reins.
The transitions bits started showing up the more amateur and hobby riders came along. The more time became a factor in making a horse. The more finished bridle horses went into decline. I attribute the rise of the now hundreds of types of “transition bits” to the growing number of people who don’t know what a bridle horse was or looks like.
All this being said. the one improvement on the simple jointed snaffle is a french link type. You hardly ever see a western rider riding in one, but I do when I do use a snaffle, sometimes.
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