Curb bits - when, how, why?

[RPM]

Originally posted by goodhors:

All the English Riders brag up “my horse goes in a snaffle” but then you SEE the mouthpieces and I gasp! They are horrendous, and I can see why the horse won’t go thru their hands or even move forward well!! Certainly the higher level folks are NOT riding in smooth 2-3 piece ring snaffle mouthpieces. There is no way I would use the variety of mouthpieces shown and legal, on anything I own.

“All” the English riders, in what discipline? Not dressage, because “horrendous” snaffle mouthpieces are not dressage-legal. Some upper-level riders (many) do not in fact use a snaffle, because their horses have moved up to a double bridle.

IME (mostly “English” of different disciplines), it is not the true riders, the educated ones, who use “horrendous” snaffles, but the people who are ignorant, don’t have a clue what they’re doing, and think a harsh bit is the answer to all their problems. It is too often “correct the horse” instead of correct the rider’s faults.

[Palm_Beach]

I have an English mullen mouth Myler that I love - got it for a very sensitive soft mouthed show hunter that did not want to hold anything other than a straight rubber bit in his mouth. I forgot all about that thing since I sold the horse and went totally western. The snaffle I use now has the little copper rollers. My western bit is a mullen mouth Myler, with a copper mouthpiece. I’m going to try the English myler on my horses today, as they have not moved up to the shank bit yet.

[Bluey]

The article on bits and their action I read in the AQHA Journal years ago had interesting x-rays of a plain snaffle with the sides loose or with them tied to the side cheeks, as a full cheek snaffle can be used.

Without tying it back, it worked so it adjusted to the horse’s tongue and fit without poking the palate.
With it tied back it was more restricted in how it could move to adjust to the horse’s mouth and made a sharp upside V and tended to poke, which must have not felt good to some horses.

That is something we could have seen trying the bit in our own hands first, as previously described and then watching how that worked in any one individual horse’s mouth.

Horses do learn to listen to our other aids and guess from the situation what we really mean when we do this or that with the reins, eventually, no matter how we use those, or by ignoring us if they have to, if our rein requests don’t make sense at times.

[Golden_Pony]

I started my Haflinger mare at 3 in a snaffle. Rode that a year mostly trails, then went to a hackamore for a year, then daughter did dressage with her in a loose ring, then went a kimberwicke when our trail rides got faster and bigger groups. When I went to the Kimberwicke I discovered that she loved the mullen mouth with a low port - she became much lighter in the bridle and more responsive to all aids. I think that shape of mouth piece is more comfortable in her mouth because I never had to be as “strong” as with the snaffle on trails and out. Then 2 years ago put her in a simple short shank grazing bit (when I knew our neck reining was perfect) and she’s been totally happy, light, responsive.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Golden Pony;8616025]
I started my Haflinger mare at 3 in a snaffle. Rode that a year mostly trails, then went to a hackamore for a year, then daughter did dressage with her in a loose ring, then went a kimberwicke when our trail rides got faster and bigger groups. When I went to the Kimberwicke I discovered that she loved the mullen mouth with a low port - she became much lighter in the bridle and more responsive to all aids. I think that shape of mouth piece is more comfortable in her mouth because I never had to be as “strong” as with the snaffle on trails and out. Then 2 years ago put her in a simple short shank grazing bit (when I knew our neck reining was perfect) and she’s been totally happy, light, responsive.[/QUOTE]

That is the way it is supposed to work.

You use whatever fits your horse and the rider’s hands and training techniques, keep changing and adapting to whatever changes there are in your horse and what you do, until you find what everyone is happiest with, while still learning more and watching that we are already doing the best for what we do.

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=Golden Pony;8616025]
I started my Haflinger mare at 3 in a snaffle. Rode that a year mostly trails, then went to a hackamore for a year, then daughter did dressage with her in a loose ring, then went a kimberwicke when our trail rides got faster and bigger groups. When I went to the Kimberwicke I discovered that she loved the mullen mouth with a low port - she became much lighter in the bridle and more responsive to all aids. I think that shape of mouth piece is more comfortable in her mouth because I never had to be as “strong” as with the snaffle on trails and out. Then 2 years ago put her in a simple short shank grazing bit (when I knew our neck reining was perfect) and she’s been totally happy, light, responsive.[/QUOTE]

There are a couple contradictions here, in terms and perhaps use of a bit. First is that there is no “Mullen mouthpiece with a port” on a bit. There can EITHER be a Mullen mouthpiece, goes straight across tongue, with curve to fit over tongue OR the low port straight mouthpiece on a bit. Kimberwick comes in both models, but unless you had a custom made bit, you don’t get both designs on the SAME bit.
We used the low port on one of our horses, he liked it, went well with it.

Now we get to the OTHER part, in asking if Kimberwick bit on Haflinger ever used a curb chain or strap?

We used the curb chain on Kimberwick with the slotted D sides, so our model actually is an Oxeter bit in the Kimberwick bit family. I chose the slotted sides to place reins and have the curb effect actually WORK when reins were used. Smooth D sides of a Kimberwick bit really do nothing to get the curb chain working. You might as well not have the chain on that model bit at all, you only have direct pull for control. Reins just slide up and down those curved parts of the D as you use them, so bit is actually a straight pull, not getting the curb chain effect to the horse.

Terminology here needs to be correct. Anytime there is a curb strap/chain that moves to touching horse chin groove when reins are pulled, that is a Curb/ Leverage bit in how it affects the horse. Doesn’t matter what the mouthpiece is, jointed, hinged, bars in mouth that are straight, curved, ported. With leverage of any sort, the bit is a Curb, even if no curb strap or chain is in place. Mouthpiece rotates in the horse mouth, giving some type of leverage, even if it is only on the crown piece of bridle. Usually the Curb leverage is more commonly affecting the horse bars in mouth, chin groove, as well as the crown of bridle.

So depending on if curb chain is in place, reins actually will cause mouthpiece rotation to apply the curb chain, a Kimberwick can fall in either the Snaffle (straight pull) or Curb (leverage) bit category. With my Oxeter model Kimberwick, I can use it both ways as I need to. One bit, more choices. I know a number of horses who do well with a solid mouthpiece over the jointed ones, bits that have ring sides. Mine certainly did.

Glad that Haflinger liked it, they can be fussy with low palate and thick tongues. Often do not have bits wide enough for their cheeks or top of bit digs into the molars. Mouth piece can be correct size on the curb bit, but top where bridle attaches (reach) needs to be flared out for the wide molars in their skull. Fjords are another breed with that same issue, needing flared tops to their bits. Often your Farrier with his forge can flare out the bit for you, or the local welding shop. Bit needs heat to move, otherwise it will probably break trying to bend it cold.

RPM, the “All English riders bragging about their Snaffle bit horses” was a little snark, when they were looking at my horse wearing a very mild curb bit. They didn’t have a clue what they were talking about with their horses wearing twisted wire, slow twist, the triangle edged bits, thin, cutting diameter mouthpiece, while thinking they were such great riders! They would give the “look” to us “mean cowboy” types riding around or waiting for a class with our curb bits. At that time my horse was wearing a Monte Foreman bit with the rein ring just at the bottom of the D beside mouthpiece. Bit had a wide, medium port for tongue room, thick diameter mouthpiece because it was gentler. And they thought it was a terrible bit because it was a “Curb bit” with horrible things happening when I should pull the reins!

It still happens, with English riders thinking curb bits are so terrible. That they are “better” riders and trainers with their snaffle bits, despite what nasty mouthpiece is needed to keep that horse under control.

Have to say there is a lot I can teach the horse with the curb bit rather quickly, he just “gets it” so much faster than he will with the snaffle bits. Not pushing him, not cranking on him, but the different head pressure feel, then relieving those pressures, it easier for him to understand faster what I am asking. I am not hanging on his head, constant pull trying to get him to give to the bit, yet maintain a little contact. This is saving me and him a lot of confusing time trying to get that same result with a ring sided bit.

I have learned a different “bit action” method than Bluey put forward for seeing how bit action works. We were told to sit in a chair, put the headstall over the bent knee, with mouthpiece across your shinbone. If a curb bit, fasten strap/chain around the back of your leg, like horse would have under his chin. Feel how the leverage cranks down on your leg with not even a firm rein pull. Then pull the reins one at a time, use the fixed or swivel sides, see how that bit moves on your bony part of the leg. Feel the curb strap pressure too. With the snaffle bits, do a little rein pulling, straight back, get firm contact like your ride with. Do a see-saw with that mouthpiece across thin skinned bone of leg to feel what horse feels on his bars. I bet you won’t think those rollers or Waterford balls on mouthpiece, are “that nice” to horse anymore!

I have to say that “learning experience” really opened my eyes to a lot, with bits working on horse mouth!

[Palm_Beach]

"It still happens, with English riders thinking curb bits are so terrible. That they are “better” riders and trainers with their snaffle bits, despite what nasty mouthpiece is needed to keep that horse under control. "

Until you head on over to the jumper ring where some of the bits look like car engines. That counts as English, right? :lol:

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8616403
Until you head on over to the jumper ring where some of the bits look like car engines. That counts as English, right? :lol:[/QUOTE]

Good one! Ha Ha

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=goodhors;8616374]
There are a couple contradictions here, in terms and perhaps use of a bit. First is that there is no “Mullen mouthpiece with a port” on a bit. There can EITHER be a Mullen mouthpiece, goes straight across tongue, with curve to fit over tongue OR the low port straight mouthpiece on a bit. Kimberwick comes in both models, but unless you had a custom made bit, you don’t get both designs on the SAME bit.
We used the low port on one of our horses, he liked it, went well with it.

Now we get to the OTHER part, in asking if Kimberwick bit on Haflinger ever used a curb chain or strap?

We used the curb chain on Kimberwick with the slotted D sides, so our model actually is an Oxeter bit in the Kimberwick bit family. I chose the slotted sides to place reins and have the curb effect actually WORK when reins were used. Smooth D sides of a Kimberwick bit really do nothing to get the curb chain working. You might as well not have the chain on that model bit at all, you only have direct pull for control. Reins just slide up and down those curved parts of the D as you use them, so bit is actually a straight pull, not getting the curb chain effect to the horse.

Terminology here needs to be correct. Anytime there is a curb strap/chain that moves to touching horse chin groove when reins are pulled, that is a Curb/ Leverage bit in how it affects the horse. Doesn’t matter what the mouthpiece is, jointed, hinged, bars in mouth that are straight, curved, ported. With leverage of any sort, the bit is a Curb, even if no curb strap or chain is in place. Mouthpiece rotates in the horse mouth, giving some type of leverage, even if it is only on the crown piece of bridle. Usually the Curb leverage is more commonly affecting the horse bars in mouth, chin groove, as well as the crown of bridle.

So depending on if curb chain is in place, reins actually will cause mouthpiece rotation to apply the curb chain, a Kimberwick can fall in either the Snaffle (straight pull) or Curb (leverage) bit category. With my Oxeter model Kimberwick, I can use it both ways as I need to. One bit, more choices. I know a number of horses who do well with a solid mouthpiece over the jointed ones, bits that have ring sides. Mine certainly did.

Glad that Haflinger liked it, they can be fussy with low palate and thick tongues. Often do not have bits wide enough for their cheeks or top of bit digs into the molars. Mouth piece can be correct size on the curb bit, but top where bridle attaches (reach) needs to be flared out for the wide molars in their skull. Fjords are another breed with that same issue, needing flared tops to their bits. Often your Farrier with his forge can flare out the bit for you, or the local welding shop. Bit needs heat to move, otherwise it will probably break trying to bend it cold.

RPM, the “All English riders bragging about their Snaffle bit horses” was a little snark, when they were looking at my horse wearing a very mild curb bit. They didn’t have a clue what they were talking about with their horses wearing twisted wire, slow twist, the triangle edged bits, thin, cutting diameter mouthpiece, while thinking they were such great riders! They would give the “look” to us “mean cowboy” types riding around or waiting for a class with our curb bits. At that time my horse was wearing a Monte Foreman bit with the rein ring just at the bottom of the D beside mouthpiece. Bit had a wide, medium port for tongue room, thick diameter mouthpiece because it was gentler. And they thought it was a terrible bit because it was a “Curb bit” with horrible things happening when I should pull the reins!

It still happens, with English riders thinking curb bits are so terrible. That they are “better” riders and trainers with their snaffle bits, despite what nasty mouthpiece is needed to keep that horse under control.

Have to say there is a lot I can teach the horse with the curb bit rather quickly, he just “gets it” so much faster than he will with the snaffle bits. Not pushing him, not cranking on him, but the different head pressure feel, then relieving those pressures, it easier for him to understand faster what I am asking. I am not hanging on his head, constant pull trying to get him to give to the bit, yet maintain a little contact. This is saving me and him a lot of confusing time trying to get that same result with a ring sided bit.

I have learned a different “bit action” method than Bluey put forward for seeing how bit action works. We were told to sit in a chair, put the headstall over the bent knee, with mouthpiece across your shinbone. If a curb bit, fasten strap/chain around the back of your leg, like horse would have under his chin. Feel how the leverage cranks down on your leg with not even a firm rein pull. Then pull the reins one at a time, use the fixed or swivel sides, see how that bit moves on your bony part of the leg. Feel the curb strap pressure too. With the snaffle bits, do a little rein pulling, straight back, get firm contact like your ride with. Do a see-saw with that mouthpiece across thin skinned bone of leg to feel what horse feels on his bars. I bet you won’t think those rollers or Waterford balls on mouthpiece, are “that nice” to horse anymore!

I have to say that “learning experience” really opened my eyes to a lot, with bits working on horse mouth![/QUOTE]

Great post, goodhors, thanks for your feedback!

I’ve got my mustang, Mac, who is much happier in his western tack than english tack. I’ve done dressage with him because I think that the principles are good for him, but something about me and him and a dressage saddle and noseband don’t make for a happy horse. But put on my western saddle, hackamore, and head down the trails and he’s a happy camper. I do also have a snaffle bit that I ride him in that he likes best of all my bits (it is a loose ring Myler comfort snaffle with a roller and I think is sweet iron or copper inlays . . . it is old). I’ve had him in the hackamore off and on for I guess two years now and was wondering about the pros and cons of a curb bit. We mostly just mosey down the trail doing w,t,c, lateral work, transitions, etc. (similar work to “arena work” but just out on the trails). I ride him on a loose rein with little contact and that is how he is happiest.

IIRC, for the progression from hackamore to two-rein, one would go to a thinner bosal first? I don’t know that I’ll do that, but I am interested in understanding the process.

[aktill]

Yep, generally a two rein bosalita starts at all the sizes less than 1/2":

http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/TindurTwoReinPhoto.jpg
http://www.easphotography.com/Winchester/IMG_8448.JPG

These are 3/8"'s, for example. One’s a center tie to the forelock, the other loops around the ears.

That isn’t a hard and fast rule, but finding clearance for thicker bosals is tough. That said, if you can’t ride your horse in a 3/8, he’s probably not ready for a two rein.

Bit wise, you’d likely need to find/have a bit modified so that the upper bit hanging rings tip out a bit. That’s to provide clearance for the bosalita.

Interestingly, one very picky way of telling a “straight up” bridle bit from a two rein bit is the angle on the bit hangers. Straight cheeks aren’t intended to be two-reined.

Really picky folks will have slightly lighter bits (1.5 lbs) for the two rein stage, and heavier ones for straight up bits (2 lbs).

Getting really fine on the distinction there though. When I asked Richard Caldwell about getting something and mentioned that I didn’t have enough money for a collection of two dozen $2500+ bits, he said that getting a 2lb bridle bit and using that for the two rein was just fine.

[Golden_Pony]

Goodhors, sorry I should have been more technical in my response. You are correct, a mullen mouth and a low port are 2 different things. I used the terminology together simply because I see so many horses these days going in kimberwickes or shank bits that have single jointed mouth.

I did use the Uxeter kimberwick low port with a chain, with the reins attached to the lower fixed slot to engage the “curb” action. I felt this was a helpful transition bit to the low port grazing curb.

Yes, Haflingers can have low palates and larger mouths - all of her bits are 5 1/2", but my other Haffie is in a 5".