My horse started acting grouchy and weird and even my trainer was chalking it up to laziness or a bad attitude. I’m glad I didn’t listen and finally found a vet who would listen to what I was feeling. We got his back treated and while I still manage him carefully and am always on the lookout for issues, he’s been great. My regular vet wanted to inject his hocks and do a bunch of neurologic testing lol. It was absolutely NEITHER of those things, it’s a back problem.
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I totally agree. My current prelim/modified horse is a TB that I’m hoping can come back from an injury but at my age, if I have to find another horse, it probably won’t be a full TB for many of the reasons you list.
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TBs have their former career working against them. It is harder to restart and untrain a race horse, than it is to start a horse from ground zero. Unfortunately, since the average person only ever gets exposed to a converted/former race horse, they don’t understand that a TB raised as a WB is just as competitive. It’s not the breed that makes TBs difficult, sensitive, prone to injury, unsound, etc. It’s their first career (racing). Give them the same upbringing as any other sport horse and you would be hard pressed to pick them out in a crowd. We have full TBs bred for sport winning YEHs, recognized events, and AECs against WBs and Irish horses. They are not less competitive when started by an eventing program.
It has always been this way, TBs tend to command 30-40% less. It is why some people don’t market the breed at all, just results. It is also why there is language like “not your average TB” or “built like a WB” in sale ads – both statements that inform me the writer/seller has zero TB experience.
Regarding the horses with letters to their record, who was their pilot? A teen or non-pro or ‘average amateur’? I’d want to see the horse go XC first, of course, but horses tend to default to the skill and confidence level of their rider. I’ve seen it enough that it wouldn’t be an instant red flag - some horses need their riders to inspire confidence in them over the bigger tracts, some riders just don’t gel well with the horse, and a change of partnership is exactly what was needed to bring out that missing piece. Now, if it was a professional, that’s a different story.
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Just IMO … A horse with letters in their record can be almost a re-start project themselves.
IMO … It’s almost at the level of the off-the-track re-start, especially in that level of difficulty/progress depends on the rider/trainer/re-starter.
Someone with experience who knows what they are doing might have everything sorted and the horse going reliably well in just a few months.
Someone with little experience of TB’s, who doesn’t know how to ride a questioning horse, might never get it right. And might make the horse even harder for the next attempt by a different rider.
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I’ve seen winning AA jumpers go for $10k and under if they are TB, I think you could find a very nice horse with a record at 1.1 or 1.2m or in the 3’ for $15k and convert it to an eventer easily enough. Typically if they’ve made it that far they are fairly broke on the flat and have a good temperament.
Why? I think its commissions tbh. I 100% understand not wanting to gamble on a horse off the track at the kinds of monthly fees H/J people pay but passing over a winning step up horse just for the breed is nothing but stupidity. The TIP hunters are getting very popular so things might change, but for now the bargains are out there.
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Certainly a factor. Sometimes when you read an “ISO” ad and it says “NO TBs” its not the client saying No TBs, its the trainer - because the trainer knows the commission from a TB is much smaller than the commission from a WB, everything else considered.
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Just wanted to interject that I think in the case of some TBs, it is not the breed but sometimes the breeding that may make them prone to injury or unsound. I certainly don’t have the knowledge to speak at any level of detail to racing TB breeding thought processes or specific bloodlines, but I do think there are a lot of TB lines that have conformation challenges bred into them that do increase the likelihood of the horse not holding up to a sport career.
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I’d also say that TBs are generally hotter and more forward than the average rider really needs. But there isn’t a good commonly available option in the US equivalent to the cob or IDx or family-type WB like there is in Europe.
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This bias (not your bias, I realize) makes me so grumpy. More than half the horses I’ve owned have been TBs and they’ve ranged just as much as my other horses in soundness, rideability, brain, etc.
I could only afford my amazing eventer because he is an OTTB. My choices for the price were him or one of many nicer-moving horses that had only gone Novice or Training. He had a record through Prelim with zero XC jump faults ever. I was so impressed with him that I literally asked the seller (diplomatically) why I could even afford him and she said sadly that no one wants TBs and “he has kind of a pony trot.” He is an idiosyncratic mover who always looks even more tense than he is, so dressage is not his strong phase (usually low/mid 30s) but we have still been pretty successful. He/we even ended up in the top 3 of multiple USEA year-end leaderboards one year. And most importantly he is a bold, scopey, catty, safe jumper who can also take a joke and make time. If you’re an amateur eventer that seems literally priceless to me, and sometimes I still can’t believe I could afford him. Granted he was not nearly as rideable when I bought him as he is now, but he was always safe.
It’s sad really because most riders would be much better off with a horse like mine than a nicer mover who isn’t as safe over fences.
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I’m going to push back on this. I can think of a few TBs who have winning records with ammys or kids in the 1.0ms that would probably sell for $10k. But they would sell for that because they don’t have the flatwork or the temperament or the foundation to sell for more. They are the horses that look a little out of the control, with riders pointing and praying. They are the rounds that may be winning, but make everyone nervous.
On the other hand, the TBs who are restarted slowly and correctly, who are putting in solid, consistent rounds at 1.0m and have great temperaments - they are not going for $10k. At least in my area, they are going for double that.
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Is that impression based on horses that had no race training or race career, or was it based on first hand experience with TBs after their racing career was over?
I agree some TB lines are better than others, and some lines conformationally are not ideal for UL sport. But I don’t know many truly unsound TB lines because the litmus test is racing - if they are genetically sound enough to race, they are genetically sound enough to be ridden in average endeavors. It’s the injuries from racing that limit their future career. The one exception would be neurological disorders – but my experience with TBs is they are sound in spite of their racing career and tend to have sounder limbs than other breeds as long as their farrier is competent and they aren’t dealing with baggage from the track. YMMV.
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My observation is mainly based on conversations with a former (favorite) farrier who knew a lot more about TB breeding than I ever will. I remember her talking about a specific popular sire many generations back to whom generations of high/low hoof syndrome in TBs could be traced. Also maybe region specific, but I am aware of loads of people that struggle with poor quality hoofs even with competent farriery. I also have run across articles about spine malformations with a genetic component being prevalent in TBs. I may be wildly off base, but it seems like the criteria for standing a TB stallion are mainly related to racing performance rather than conformation/temperament /freedom from defects.
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TBs are sensitive and intelligent people who do need to be handled by competent horsemen. They will do anything that is asked of them, are brave and athletic and will try forever so they make excellent Eventers. But it is relatively easy to mess them up, physically and mentally, with poor and rough handling. They are not the horse for just anyone. The AQH, by my understanding, was first bred as a workhorse for anyone to throw a saddle over and the breed has since diverged into different types for the specialist disciplines. Wouldn’t a racing or hunter-bred QH be a source for a good Eventer since those have so much TB blood in them?
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I’m personally a big fan of TBs, and the fact that they can usually be bought off the track fairly cheap means that people without big budgets can afford horses with a lot of athletic ability.
But it’s always struck me that the people who have the biggest chip on their shoulder about TBs tending to bring lower prices, and some buyers saying they don’t want to buy a TB, often want to have it both ways … they’ll say the stereotypes are wrong and TBs don’t have a tendency to be hot any more than WBs, and they don’t tend to have bad feet or be hard keepers. Then in the next breath they’re bemoaning the “fact” that riders these days don’t have what it takes to ride and manage TBs, and they all want to take the easy way out by getting a WB.
To those people I say: Get out and show the world how amazing your horse is, no matter what breed it is, and stop being offended that other people might choose a different breed. If you’re in the business of selling horses, sure, it’s relevant that the market tends to favor WBs, but for the 99% of us that aren’t professional horse dealers … don’t worry so much about what breed of horse other people prefer and just ride the horse that suits you best.
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The criteria for standing a race TB is certainly different than for sport. There are some (IMO) public misconceptions about TB stallions though. In order to tolerate the rigors of racing on mind and body, and survive them without catastrophic physical or mental breakdown, the individual horse has to be of quality bone, hooves, temperament, and conformation. If it wasn’t, it wouldn’t survive. By virtue of how physically demanding racing is, and by virtue of catastrophic breakdown also sometimes equaling lethality (AKA culling from the gene pool), the TB has really thinned out ‘unsound’ lines. Also, to be a successful TB stallion and to be able to handle how difficult, busy, and micromanagey that lifestyle is, they have to have good character/temperament.
There are lines that can have high/low hoof syndrome, and yes some lines have C5/C6/C7 malformation. Neither of these are TB specific issues, all sport breeds have these including high dollar warmbloods bred for UL sport and currently standing at stud today. There are some lines I would not want for these reasons, but it’s the exception not the norm. There are some concerns about stallions retiring after fewer and fewer starts, and how that facilitates less sound lines. I haven’t necessarily experienced that first hand yet. Some lines (like dirt) are not necessarily built for UL dressage - but popping around a ring is a different story.
All my TBs have grown great hoof and had uncomplicated feet. I will say this - racing is incredibly hard on hooves. Galloping on hard ground, in intense and repetitive efforts when you’re barely mature will change the shape and growth of your hooves. Many have shoes put on them at 1.5 years. They’re trimmed to underrun heels and long toes to ‘improve breakover’. It can take years and a good farrier to reverse that damage. Not many farriers are educated enough to do this. I have met more bad farriers than bad TBs, so YMMV.
I don’t think TBs are for everyone. They generally don’t tolerate rough handling, and they’re sensitive in ways that can get a green rider in trouble. They get a bad rap because they do the hardest job ever, get sold cheap to uneducated/green homes, transition to a second/third career and they’re blamed for their baggage, not the sport that created it or the uneducated management that facilitated it. Don’t get me wrong - I love racing - but even I can see how it does them little favors in the long run when it comes to how hard it uses up their body.
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This has been my thinking for quite some time. Because it is possible to get an OTTB without any retraining for relatively cheap, for many that means going to a home without access to quality training. So when the public sees a poorly educated horse, they blame the breed. If warmbloods were equally financially accessible, I bet we would see a lot more lacking quality training as well.
If I had a dollar for every “quirky” warmblood I have known I would have a very fancy one myself 
In my experience the best brain award goes to Welsh ponies 
I think the market has softened for most horses, but the market has remained strong for the higher end horses - because the rich always get richer 
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Husband’s new horse is an OTTB, and we are happy to make a return to TBs after 7 years of dealing with a WB. This guy wants to be part of the process, has a great sense of humor, a winning record through training and an altogether very neat horse to have in the barn. Yes, he’s a bit more hoof high maintenance at the moment (if my farrier told me to stand naked on I-95 to help with his feet I’d be out there stripping) but I agree I’ve seen more farrier issues than hoof issues. Our last TB’s career with us basically ended due to bad farrier work.
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I’m wading in here carefully. I think, (2 most dangerous words in the English language) that the things we’re seeing in the market with pricing and what’s selling are only highlighting the flaws in the world of Equestrianism now.
I’ll do bullet points to make this quicker:
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Attractive sells. And it does so without regard to temperament, show records, rideability.
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The solid packer is diminished in value if the above doesn’t apply. No white, downgrade. No fancy name or breeding, downgrade. Here is the irony…the packer can’t have a quirk, BUT the attractive horse can be practically unrideable and they will be clamoring at the door.
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The COVID affect - So we all know that prices went through the roof, but also shows stopped and some people took time off from riding during the pandemic for a variety of reasons. While others were at the barn 24/7 practically while the rest of the world was on hold or figuring things out. The interesting thing is that buyers are now ‘suspicious’ of horses that weren’t competed when there were NO SHOWS. I have heard of a few suggesting that horses had major time off and bypassing them. Their owners just didn’t ride then. So that’s an interesting wrinkle
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No hoof no horse - I have seen way more advanced farrier work (on all types and disciplines of horses) This is due to more imaging, more shoeing technology, the effects of more synthetic footing, less turnout and riding on natural surfaces etc. But some are (rightfully) put off by the horse whose shoes are $400+ per 5 week cycle versus the ones with no shoeing needs. And it seems not to matter if the horse has a solid show record to align with the nice shoes… people just don’t want the maintenance
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And another thing…Maintenance
For a society completely enraptured with all the latest things to do to extend your life, be healthier, avoid cancer, avoid death etc. there’s a LOT of people who do not want to help their animals be able to do their job better or live in more comfort. A horse doing it’s job well with annual or bi-annual maintenance has a light red flag.
- Money… High Versus Low outweighs the middle.
Here and in the UK the middle range horses are seeming to be stagnant but the big prices and the little ones are selling. I can speak from experience that my OTTB I owned and trained in multiple disciplines took me 5 years to sell. While everyone else has figured out how to import or buy sales horses that they rarely ride much and just free jump them or post liberty videos and they sell in 30 days. (Unless they’re ugly or have no white. LOL)
Over and over all of these things show us a resoundingly loud bottom line. People want immediate gratification. Be it walking into the ring on a big fancy horse or being able to post on social media your new attractive fancy young horse. But that in and of itself is flawed and the Facebook post from EquiSale yesterday was DEAD on accurate. We all do it backwards. We want the young fancy horse as a cheaper way to get to the established made horse who can show us the ropes at bigger things, but that only works if you are a skilled rider as well. And not everyone trying this trajectory is.
Thanks for listening,
Em
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I know this isn’t what you were referring to, but upon further reflection I absolutely have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to TBs, and that chip specifically shows up when people ask what breed my mare is and then act all surprised I’ve said she’s a TB. She is lovely, and she is beautiful, and she is talented, but while she is special to me there is nothing particularly special about her - by which I mean she is absolutely representative of her breed.
Speaking generally now, TBs are amazing athletes who loves to work. If you support them properly in that desire they will make it worth your while.
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