[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5011860]
A colleague on a veterinary list recently told of having a trainer request treatment for a problem in one of his charges.
Vet had to reschedule due to an emergency–and the groom answered the phone when he called, but when he walked into the barn a few days later, the trainer, who hadn’t been informed, ran over and hugged him because the horse was so much better after the treatment…[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol:
You summed it up quite nicely. Androcles was sure there would be no studies on homeopathic treatments in veterinary journals. And when pancakes cites one … well … nothing
Massage Lady is seldom impressed with anything other than her own equine massage classes.
[QUOTE=CatOnLap;5011963]
I had to say that the scientists on this thread are pretty impressive in their whole brain thinking, and the faith healers, not so much.[/QUOTE]
Hear, hear!
As I said before, I am NOT against alternative treatments. I am, however, bothered by adherents who are sure their brand of alternative medicine is somehow superior to more traditional ones – with absolutely nothing to back up their claims but their own strong feelings.
I used homeopathics to help a horse recover from a devastating injury because there was nothing else to be done for her. I asked my vet about it and he said go for it. Can’t hurt and might help. The horse recovered fully. Was it because of the treatment? I doubt it. She was already beginning to improve when I started it.
Did homeopathics make her more comfortable or speed her recovery? Possibly. Most horses that suffer massive infection and severe founder as she did have a few setbacks and she only had one – about 3 months in, when I’d run out of the stuff and hadn’t given it to her for 10 days. Started her on the stuff again and she showed improvement within 7 days. She also recovered more quickly than expected.
There you have it. A study of one. Proves nothing … except that I’ll try anything once. Twice if I like it. (tips hat to Mae West)
[QUOTE=mp;5012022]
You summed it up quite nicely. Androcles was sure there would be no studies on homeopathic treatments in veterinary journals. And when pancakes cites one … well … nothing
Massage Lady is seldom impressed with anything other than her own equine massage classes.
Hear, hear!
As I said before, I am NOT against alternative treatments. I am, however, bothered by adherents who are sure their brand of alternative medicine is somehow superior to more traditional ones – with absolutely nothing to back up their claims but their own strong feelings.
I used homeopathics to help a horse recover from a devastating injury because there was nothing else to be done for her. I asked my vet about it and he said go for it. Can’t hurt and might help. The horse recovered fully. Was it because of the treatment? I doubt it. She was already beginning to improve when I started it.
Did homeopathics make her more comfortable or speed her recovery? Possibly. Most horses that suffer massive infection and severe founder as she did have a few setbacks and she only had one – about 3 months in, when I’d run out of the stuff and hadn’t given it to her for 10 days. Started her on the stuff again and she showed improvement within 7 days. She also recovered more quickly than expected.
There you have it. A study of one. Proves nothing … except that I’ll try anything once. Twice if I like it. (tips hat to Mae West)[/QUOTE]
To say a little about relationships…
Statistical evidence suggests that those who are in rewarding relationships tend to have fewer health problems.
An infant needs to “feel” cared for to truly prosper.
Some of the greatest accomplishments have been motivated for the want to care for others.
To feel cared for, and to care, are natural functions for many living things.
Would it not then be reasonable to consider that an animal may evolve to have a sense of purpose, and when that animal feels “happy” to have a purpose, then that may effect the animals health?
So a patient goes to a doctor who preforms tests that yield a result, and a treatment is prescribed… But patient does not heal.
Then the patient goes to a Homeopath who “talks” to the patient, and makes a “special” remedy just for them… and through that process the patient then “feels” cared for… so perhaps it’s the care that causes the healing and not the cure…
“mp” gave her horse a homeopathic remedy not because she expressly believed it would cure her horse, but because she cared enough about the horse to “give” to the horse something that she “hoped” would help her horse get well.
Perhaps the horse sensed how much “mp” cared, and responded by fulfilling a purpose that created happiness for them both.
[QUOTE=Percheron X;5011648]
Because the bottle is the physical representation of the cure…
The healing is initiated through the “ritual” that is the bottle…
The healing power is created through belief, and the belief is validated through the ritual.
Fire walking is an example of a physical state induced by belief.[/QUOTE]
As the drugs tests using placebos have illustrated. I’m a firm believer in using drugs and doctors, but when those don’t work, I think using holistic methods are good too. After all, the doctors used to use leeches, then said it was witchcraft, and now they are back to using leeches. So my horses none of which have cushings eat their chaste tree berries daily. (get the whole ones). Will it prevent cushings? We’ll see.
After all, the doctors used to use leeches, then said it was witchcraft, and now they are back to using leeches.
Not quite. Leeches were observed to ingest blood. Somebody tried them as a means of bloodletting, which turned out to be a pretty bad idea for most of the things it was used for back in the “bad old days”. But the leeches weren’t ineffective, and the observation that they removed blood wasn’t faulty or wrong, it was simply the idea that “removing blood is a good thing” that was faulty in most situations.
Nowadays leech saliva has been exploited for its antithrombotic properties, based on the correct observation that they are able to ingest blood without clots forming. The fact that “old time” doctors did bloodletting is the part that indicates a lack of knowledge, not that leeches don’t work.
What is “witchcraft” there? 
That’s not to say that a WHOLE BUNCH of things that once passed for medical care weren’t, but leeches aren’t really on that list. What is evident in the story above is an example of IGNORANCE (bloodletting is therapeutically beneficial), and with the passage of time and more knowledge, that was corrected. It’s actually a fine example of the powers of scientific observation and research, if you ask me. Which is what the practice of traditional medicine is founded upon.
All sorts of things that were once considered “alternative” or outside the mainstream, once they are thoroughly researched and understood, get absorbed. In which case they themselves become mainstream. Heck, even voodoo death is reasonably well pinned down nowadays. Nothing more “witchy” than that. :eek:
But the practice and theory of homeopathy has had a VERY long time to show us something. The world still waits.
[QUOTE=Percheron X;5012106]
“mp” gave her horse a homeopathic remedy not because she expressly believed it would cure her horse, but because she cared enough about the horse to “give” to the horse something that she “hoped” would help her horse get well.
Perhaps the horse sensed how much “mp” cared, and responded by fulfilling a purpose that created happiness for them both.[/QUOTE]
Oh, that must be why another boarder had to euth her horse yesterday, she didn’t show she cared enough for him to get well. I guess she should have bought that double Marquis dose right in front of him so he could see her going into debt to help him and then he would have gotten better, and we should have walked out to the horse every time we discussed his situation, and I don’t know, did an interpretive dance for him to show our care? Can I give you her phone number so you can explain it to her so maybe she doesn’t make that mistake in the future with another horse?
[QUOTE=chaltagor;5012285]
Oh, that must be why another boarder had to euth her horse yesterday, she didn’t show she cared enough for him to get well. I guess she should have bought that double Marquis dose right in front of him so he could see her going into debt to help him and then he would have gotten better, and we should have walked out to the horse every time we discussed his situation, and I don’t know, did an interpretive dance for him to show our care? Can I give you her phone number so you can explain it to her so maybe she doesn’t make that mistake in the future with another horse?[/QUOTE]
Sorry to hear of your friends loss. But honestly, I think you’ve misinterpreted the “spirit” of this philosophical idealism.
Your interpretation infers a “scientific” causality/results onto a purely metaphysical, philosophic, and entirely offered in good faith, premise of care and healing.
However there “is” statistical evidence that “happiness” may equate to good health, so perhaps there may be a venue for science to explore.
Additionally…
How is this not unlike the small child who asks if there is a god when there are so many people who suffer…
If care can heal… Can healing be demanded of those for whom we care?
[QUOTE=Percheron X;5012376]
Additionally…
If care can heal… Can healing be demanded of those for whom we care?[/QUOTE]
IMNTBCHO, No.
I’m with PerchX on this one.
No; I don’t think a pat on the neck is going to fix a colonic torsion, but some time spent grooming the horse post-surgery anecdotaly (IME) seems to make the recovery period smoother and a tad shorter.
Sorry, no, you need to read ‘for comprehension’ as they say. I never said that. In fact I’ve seen such studies in veterinary journals quite a few times.
If care can heal… Can healing be demanded of those for whom we care?
You mean like that TV evangelist with the bad wig who used to whack people on the head and demand that they “HEAL!”?
What WAS his name?
[QUOTE=egontoast;5012602]
You mean like that TV evangelist with the bad wig who used to whack people on the head and demand that they “HEAL!”?
What WAS his name?[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol:
I have a TB who I don’t think would appreciate his methods. :eek:
Just a quick note. Talking re: care and energy (universal etc.) … I know DW has seen this but some of you might enjoy:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html
A pretty amazing ‘insight’ … and the book is even more detailed and VERY insightful. (no pun intended.)
(You may have to copy entire URL and paste in your address bar)
(and she describes right vs. left hemisphere thinking very interestingly.)
That might have been Oral Roberts and his Powah Of Jeesahs!
Not sure if he healed anyone, but he probably gave them a decent headache.
Naw, Oral Roberts didn’t wear a wig, I don’t think. Jim Bakker, maybe? He had a world-class toupee. He lost it in prison. 
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5012520]
I’m with PerchX on this one.
No; I don’t think a pat on the neck is going to fix a colonic torsion, but some time spent grooming the horse post-surgery anecdotaly (IME) seems to make the recovery period smoother and a tad shorter.[/QUOTE]
There’s proper scientific evidence that interacting with animals reduces indicators of stress levels, like blood pressure, in people and seem to help people do better with health problems (see also: service dogs, including the relatively new realm of psychiatric service dogs) so assuming the animal is enjoying the attention it doesn’t seem that unrealistic that the opposite may also be true. (Particularly given that most social animals seem engage in some type of positive contact/grooming amongst members of the group as part of keeping the group together and establishing and strengthening relationships.)
I don’t know if anyone’s done any studies to measure stress indicators in dogs (for example) while being petted or groomed, though.
[QUOTE=egontoast;5012602]
You mean like that TV evangelist with the bad wig who used to whack people on the head and demand that they “HEAL!”?
What WAS his name?[/QUOTE]
I believe you are thinking of Benny Hinn.
[QUOTE=Androcles;5012568]
Sorry, no, you need to read ‘for comprehension’ as they say. I never said that. In fact I’ve seen such studies in veterinary journals quite a few times.[/QUOTE]
But [QUOTE=Androcles;5007903]It’s not a veterinary treatment.[/QUOTE] so why would they be there?
I think it’s perfectly plausible that caring and compassion would have a beneficial impact on health, for the reasons many have listed.
However.
Effecting a “cure” (yes, I will stipulate that the term must be used loosely in many cases) often takes a lot more than care and compassion. There’s no reason at all why drugs and surgeries and other interventions can’t be used WITH care and compassion, though. It’s when one is substituted for the other that we got problems.
For whatever it’s worth and whatever it’s touted to be, I don’t hear much from homeopathic practitioners that their remedies are simply “care and compassion in a bottle”. Oh no, they want credit in the realm of actually mitigating the disease process, too. Only when the collective feet are held to the fire and measurable, reproducible benefits are sought, they retreat into “well, it’s letting the body heal itself” and “maybe it’s just the power of positive thinking”. Nuh-uh, you can’t have it both ways. If the body is healing itself, it doesn’t need a vibration from a bottle of Stoli. If, however, you want to claim a part in the process via caring and positive thoughts and energy, GREAT. Let’s call it faith healing and be done with it. Got no problem with faith healing, as long as it works with the same humility, requirement for proof, and awareness of its limitations that my methods do.
I for one think that care and compassion in a bottle would be a wonderful thing to have. There are many, many people and animals who could use a gallon of both. 
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